[eternal05]

I own a K8 GSX-R600, and I got it after almost two years on a Ninja 250R. Take what I say seriously.

The GSX-R is a race bike. If you haven’t ridden a bike before, you don’t know how dramatic the difference can be. The riding posture is completely different from a “standard,” or even the Ninja 250R, though the 250R is a bit closer to the gixxer, posture-wise. You’re leaned forward in such a way that, without proper technique, it is very difficult to keep your weight off your hands, making precise steering difficult. Moreover, it’s difficult to keep your head and eyes up when your leaned forward so much if you’re busy concentrating on other things (not dying). The front brakes, dual-12-inch-rotor 4-piston calipers, are capable in some circumstances of lifting the rear wheel with a gentle tug on the brake lever from a single finger. People on this forum routinely talk about using four fingers to comfortably stop their bikes. The engines carried by bikes in this class are absurdly powerful, second only to the frantic pull of superbikes (at least in the stock arena). The clip-on bars on the GSX-R lock out several inches earlier than the Ninja 250R on both sides, meaning you have much less range of front wheel movement from lock to lock. The suspension is not set up to be friendly; it’s set up to be precise and compliant on pothole-free race tracks.

Basically what I’m trying to say is that it’s not just the crazy acceleration that makes the GSX-R a bike for experienced riders. It’s the way the bike handles. It’s the way the bike stops. It’s the way the bike’s power is made available (with a sudden hit around 9-10K rpm), and the way it’s not available in places a new rider might want it (below 6K rpm). It’s the fact that it’s crazy hard to do low-speed maneuvering on a GSX-R as compared to a Ninja 250/500/650 or SV650.

Trust me. This is not a beginner bike. This is coming from somebody who had a decently long run on a true “beginner bike” before moving up, and somebody who’s perhaps more obsessed than most about developing top-notch riding skills. If you think you care enough about riding safely to tempt your fate on a definitively dangerous bike, it’s your decision. I’d advise against it.

[eternal05]

I haven’t seen those roads in the summer for quite some time. Maybe one of these days I’ll try to make a similar trek…gotta get out of the city more!

Sounds like a blast. Thanks for the great pictures

[eternal05]

I was thinking of making a public but non-editable Google docs spreadsheet. That way people can view it faster and without having to own Excel/Office/etc.

[eternal05]

I was a software engineer for a while, but I’ve since gone back to grad school. I’ll be back in the workforce in about 6 months.

[eternal05]

It’s not a question of whether you CAN turn the motorcycle without your hands. We all know you CAN. The question is, is it an EFFECTIVE way to control the bike, and the answer to that is absolutely not.

The problem with “body english” is that it becomes decreasingly effective as speed increases. If you’re going 25mph, a body lean to the left will move the bike quite a bit (depending on the bike of course). At 40mph it won’t do much. At 60mph, it won’t do anything. For this reason, “weighting” the pegs, shifting your body weight, etc. are not valid bike control techniques. If you want rapid and controlled change of direction at any speed, you need to provide counter-steering input to the bars. Period.

If thinking about weighting the peg helps you counter steer, that’s a different story. I can’t speak to that.

Important peeve: counter-steering WILL get you faster changes in direction, if you provide adequate steering inputs. Take the extreme case as proof. Seasoned racers typically go from vertical to knee on the ground in about 1-1.5 seconds. First, you could never make this rapid change using “body english” at any speed above 15mph, let alone at 90mph. Second, despite hanging off their bikes like crazy people, racers make all steering inputs using the bars! If you watch them, they position their body to the side immediately BEFORE the turn, then counter-steer to drop the bike into the turn and get that knee down. Hanging off has nothing to do with the rate at which they turn, and input to the bars has everything to do with it.

Anal-retentive peeve: counter-steering is, by definition, the act of providing opposite input on the handlebars. If you were trying to suggest that, because the front wheel turns one way as the bike leans the opposite way regardless of turning methodology, you are counter-steering whenever you turn the bike, I see what you’re getting at. However, your use of a specifically defined term is misleading in that context. If you want to be clear, I wouldn’t use “counter-steer” to refer to anything other than the phenomenon of “push-left-to-go-left.”

[eternal05]

Those are cool bikes…a lot of fun and really forgiving.

OH MAH GAWD! Capt. Crash is on the forums? Is this legit? Well either way, Crash’s videos make me damn happy. Good to have you around Cap’n…if that is your real name…

[eternal05]

I disagree with your categories. I think you’re right in that there are people on this earth that can safely learn with a supersport (one of my best friends is one of them: two years and 15+ track days without a drop, crash, or accident of any kind). I don’t, however, think that we should make that possibility known in any literature on this site. If somebody comes by asking about it, we can judge their attitude and give them advice on a case-by-case basis.

The problem is that almost everybody (and I’m as guilty as sin on this) THINKS they’re safe, cautious, determined to practice and develop skills, “man enough,” etc. Whether they think they’re good enough to handle a GSX-R or CBR is immaterial. Those that want the supersport in the first place (*cough* me *cough*) are the same guys who brashly think they’re among the few that can handle it.

If I hadn’t been strongly pushed by friends, MSF safety courses, and various books/websites to start on a 250, I WOULD have purchased the GSX-R first. I’m REALLY glad I waited until I had almost two years and 13,000+ miles on my 250R to bump up to the bigger bike. Not only did it probably save me from some bad experiences (worst case, death), but it gave me an appreciation for smaller displacement riding. As I’ve said before, the latter is true to the point that I’ve not sold the Ninja to this day. I still love riding it around, despite my utter infatuation with my Suzuki

Last thing: I’ve got my work/school crap wrapped up for now so I’m going to try to put in some time on this beginner bike stuff. I’d already gathered some specs for about 10 of those bikes (a lot of the ones I’d originally included). I’ll try to get those for the other bikes and figure out how to present it all.

[eternal05]

I feel your pain!

[eternal05]

In addition to being the standard mantra of the “race” line, outside-inside-outside is basic MSF BRC-recommended street cornering procedure. If you don’t believe the MSF, you can consult any of the standard street riding literature for further proof of its legitimacy.

The “apex” of a cornering arc is the point at which you are closest to the inside of the turn, and does not have to be at the very limit of your lane, nor should it. Leaving your lane in any way, shape, or form is not a requirement of this basic cornering technique. Starting from the outside puts you at a point in the road that gives you maximum visibility around the bend, as well as makes you most visible to oncoming traffic.

I don’t think anybody here so much as suggested using wind resistance as a brake replacement. Not sure where that came from.

Finally, I’m referring to the poor aerodynamics of a helmet turned perpendicularly to the direction of travel. I’m not referring to “head shake” when the helmet is facing forward. I wouldn’t argue this point as it’s a well-accepted and obvious fact of life on the road.

Rudeness is never warranted, especially not when you’ve misinterpreted that to which you are responding. It’s precisely the absence of rudeness and hostility that makes this community great. Don’t mess that up.

[eternal05]

Having torque and power available throughout makes a bike more forgiving to a new rider. If they get stuck on an incline, through a corner, after sudden braking, etc. in too high a gear, they aren’t completely hosed.

While an SV650 isn’t a “beginner bike,” it may be perfectly reasonable for a beginner with the right background and requisite skills.

[eternal05]

It really was hard to get used to at first. Even now, when I really start pushing the bike into its upper rev range (11k+) it still takes a certain amount of restraint to prevent the downshift. It’s just so noisy!

But yeah, that’s where all your power went

[eternal05]

1) The 08+ models are MARGINALLY less powered than the previous models. At this level, nobody really cares about that. Gary Jaehne, 250 enthusiast and author of this site’s 250R review had this to say:

“It’s still only a seat-o-the-pants dyno impression at this point, but based on having run the new bike on the same combination of twisty backroads (including some with steep uphills) that I’ve sampled for the last 80K miles on my old-generation (2000) Ninja 250, I suspect that in stock emissions-legal trim, the ’08 model is putting out just a tad less peak HP.“

That’s peak HP, anyways, and what you’re missing in that statistic is that the fourth gen Ninjas (08+) have a much more balanced midrange, meaning there’s more power available to you in the RPM range you’d normally ride in.

2) On that note, the ’08 250R is a speedy vehicle. It supposedly gets to 60mph in 5.5 seconds with a good rider, and that’s a helluva lot faster than most cars. Plenty of sports cars can’t touch that. What you may not have figured out yet is that the 250 (past and present, but your past generation even more so) needs to be ridden in a higher rev range than larger bikes. All of the power is available high up. If you feel like it’s sluggish, but you’re not keeping revs above a minimum of 6-7K rpm at all times, you aren’t using the power delivery properly.

Back to the actual thread: I’m going to vote 650R though I think you’d be perfectly happy on a 250R. You’d probably be happier on the 650R.

[eternal05]

You should expect to pay a tad more for the bigger displacement.

[eternal05]

That rear brake is absolutely essential for tight maneuvers. You can do anything with the rear brake on. It makes me feel like I’m riding in slow motion through peanut butter. It’s great! You’ll find it not only helps when making tight right turns, but also when parking, pulling U-turns, and negotiating slow-moving traffic. Nothing makes me happier than not having to put my feet down.

Your line through a turn is really important, so definitely brush up on those fundamentals. Going from outside to inside (apex) to outside is also really helpful, as it allows you to increase the radius of the turn (i.e. reduce the “sharpness”) while also making you more visible to oncoming traffic. You might want to look into late apexing, a technique that’s particularly effective in preventing surprises when riding unknown roads. Also, make sure to look before the roll. What you’re looking at could be the most important aspect of your riding.

It is incredible how much wind drag dissipates when you get into a tuck isn’t it! Back in the day when I was braking in my 250R and dealing with that insufferable 4000rpm rev limit, I found that I could get the bike up to 39-40 mph without going over 4K rpm by getting into the “bubble.” Normally the bike would hit the rev limit at 34-35 mph.

Once you start getting up to highway speeds, you’ll feel this even more. At 75mph the force of wind against you is pretty damn strong. If you don’t have one of the top-end race helmets (Arai RX-7, Shoei X-11, etc.), you’ll find that if you turn your head away from straight, the poor side-ways aerodynamics suddenly make you feel like somebody’s trying to twist your head off. Now imagine what it’s like to pop up from a tuck at the end of a 200mph straight

[eternal05]

No, I’m not a professor. At the moment I’m a grad student, but I was also teaching a course. Double whammy

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