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eternal05Participant
I was old enough and financially independent when I started riding motorcycles such that it didn’t matter what my dad had to say about it. However, being one of the lucky guys who gets along with his dad, I didn’t want to ruin things. While he rode a Vespa across Europe in nothing but a dress suit during the fifties, a few nasty auto accidents late in life (he’s almost 80 now) turned him into a worry wart.
Your mom might be a different story. Mothers are emotional and sometimes immune to reason, and for good reason. Usually their instincts are right. My dad, on the other hand, is a very logical man. My approach was to smother him in facts. Spend a few hours on Google and you’ll be amazed what you’ll find. A few of the gems I found in one particular study (recent, not the Hurt report):
- 50% of riders killed on motorcycles were not wearing helmets. Almost all of these died of head trauma.
- 30% of fatal motorcycle accidents involve illegal levels of alcohol or narcotic intoxication.
- The MEAN (mathematical average) engine displacement of motorcycles involved in fatal accidents is 1000cc. Do the math and you’ll realize that the number of people who die on 250cc bikes must be a tiny proportion of the total population.
- I don’t remember the exact figure, but I believe something like 60% of all motorcycle accidents don’t involve a second vehicle. This is a great one to counter the “I trust you, but I don’t trust all the OTHER idiots on the road.” This suggests that rider error is the dominant cause of accidents.
- …
Now of course, you can find some other study which will contradict the facts above. In fact, the Hurt report — perhaps the most famous, but horribly outdated, motorcycle crash study carried out in…the seventies perhaps? — looks pretty bad for riders. It suggests that collisions at low speeds with other vehicles cause most fatalities. The thing to remember here is that a) motorcycling as a sport was in its infancy at the time; most people that rode didn’t have an ounce of training, b) the equipment available was much less responsive and easier to crash, and c) nobody wore any gear.
Another thing I did was to stress the performance difference between the bikes she associates with “crazy biker types” and the bike you’d be on. I didn’t tell my dad that I was already drooling over 600cc supersport bikes. I just pointed out that a literbike can hit 60mph in under 3 seconds, and most can hit 100 in first gear…often in around 5 seconds with a good launch. The Ninja 250R, on the other hand, hits 60mph around as fast as a zippy sports sedan (~5.5 sec, like a regular WRX or something), and has a very friendly throttle response. No twitch of the wrist will increase your speed by 20mph instantaneously. Blah blah blah….people are idiots and buy bikes they can’t handle and they die…blah blah blah.
You get the idea. Giving this ammo to your Dad might be the best way for you to go, since it sounds like she might not hear anything you have to say.
eternal05ParticipantBack when I got my 250R, new ones were impossible to find. The economy hadn’t completely tanked and supply was low. I had to wait four months to get mine, and paid through the nose for it (~$5K). Now that same dealer has four sitting around, unclaimed, each with a sticker price of $3,900. I would say your dealer is messing with you. Negotiate it down, especially if they have multiple 250Rs on the floor. There’s no reason for them to inflate the price in this economy.
The dealership I went to wouldn’t take credit card for the full amount, but would take debit. Perhaps you could pay the max via credit card and the remainder as a cash down payment. I would highly recommend avoiding financing if you can, especially on such a relatively affordable vehicle. Paying “cash” (in whatever form) will also sometimes help your negotiations.
As far as dropping the bike goes, you don’t have too much to worry about if you’re a decently strong individual. The Ninja 250 is very light, and I was able to save the few situations I ran into that might have been drops on a heavier bike. It’s a risk for all beginners, but you have much better chances with this bike than you would with your average cruiser.
Finally, I ask this of all people that come through here looking for a Ninja…are you over 6′ tall? This may compromise your ergonomics. Be absolutely sure to sit on the bike before you waltz off with it. Get it in a work stand or have a buddy hold it up while you go through all the motions. Shift your toes from the pegs to the foot controls (shifter, brake) and see if you can comfortably grip the tank with your knees the whole time. I can’t. It makes riding the Ninja…interesting at times.
That’s all. Good luck, and have fun at MSF!
eternal05ParticipantI really don’t mean to patronize you if this is a stupid question, but how much weight are you putting on the bars? A lot of people experience hand and wrist discomfort because of excessive reliance on the handlebars for balance. If you were going at speed (30mph+), could you take both hands off the bars without feeling insecure or losing balance?
eternal05ParticipantGuys, I know we are ultra-paranoid here about people doing stupid things, and looking back at my original post, I can see that it can be easily read the wrong way, but caaahhhmmmaaaaahhhn!
Knee dragging in traffic is dumb.
Also, you don’t need to go fast to put a knee down. Being able to put knee to ground is directly related to sharpness of turn relative to speed, not speed alone. When I learned to hang off I was going in a 17mph circle in some parking lot. Moreover, the decision to hang off is made by the rider. Most of you guys regularly lean the bike over enough that, were you hanging off the side, you could have put a knee down.
To address the “well if you’re not on the track and not in traffic, where are you?” question, there are two answers. One, a lot of the roads I ride for fun are very open, with long and high-visibility corners. 100ft before hitting most turns I can see half a mile up the road past turn exit. Again, knee down does NOT mean going faster than I should be. You can turn just as hard without hanging off. Doing it is more fun though
Also, I have a very large flat “skid pad” a few miles from my house. I think it used to be a shipping yard or something. I often go there with friends to practice, do drills, hang out, and zip around.
eternal05ParticipantThe very first thing you do is take a sanctioned Motorcycle Safety Foundation (usually referred to as “MSF”) course. The rest of your questions will be answered by:
https://bestbeginnermotorcycles.com/beginner-motorcycle-guide
eternal05ParticipantI’m not sure if you’re referring to simply shifting pre-turn or to shifting and braking at the same time.
If you’re talking about shifting down through the gears before you make a turn, that’s easy.
If you’re talking about shifting down through the gears while braking firmly and smoothly (and not releasing pressure on the brake) in the minimum space required, performing smooth and well-matched shifts each time, I beg to differ. This happens on every corner during a race, but also presents itself opportune in every day street driving. For instance, if the car in front of you suddenly slows a great deal and you were on a hill, you’d have to hit the brakes hard, but simultaneously shift down a gear or two while braking so the engine could handle the lower gear. If you’ve never done this before, I maintain it’s hard. If it was taught in your MSF class, you were lucky. Mine didn’t ever have us use this particular skill. I had to practice it on my own.
eternal05Participant1) For anybody who’s ever learned heel-and-toe downshifting in a car (which is more or less the same concept applied to the four-wheeled variety of vehicles), it’s pretty tricky to get the first couple of times. It’s like learning to shift all over again. Your right hand has to modulate the front brake and the throttle simultaneously and with a decent degree of sensitivity, all the while your right foot is also occupied, as are your left hand and left foot. DO NOT try this on the street the first time. As with everything else, find a big ass parking lot. Turn the bike off and practice the hand motions a bit until you think you can do it. Then try it in a STRAIGHT line until you can do it smoothly and regularly, but also fast enough that in an emergency you won’t be stuck without acceleration for too long. As mentioned by others, when you’re on the road, get all your braking and downshifting done at the same time (i.e. before you hit the turn). That way you can roll on the throttle right away after you get the bike leaned in.
2) At the risk of reproducing many a YouTube flame war, compression braking is ill-advised. Yes, with a wet clutch (as most but not all motorcycles have), the wear on the clutch for a given action is reduced relative to a dry clutch, and the lesser forces acting on bike clutches compared to cars also yield less wear on the clutch. It’s a really simple equation, however:
a. Brake pads are cheap. Clutches and transmission components are not.
b. Brakes are purpose-built to slow you down. The engine is purpose-built to speed you up.
c. As much as a little engine braking won’t hurt anyone, using engine-braking as the primary means to slow your motorcycle throughout its entire life WILL put undue strain on parts you do not want to have to replace.
d. Engine braking acts only on your rear-wheel. As we all know, the rear both contributes far less to a motorcycles stopping power and, during slowing, when weight is transferred primarily to the front forks and tire, the rear wheel is the more common source of skids and instability thanks to momentarily lowered traction. If your reflex reaction in a high-speed pinch (where “high” means “greater than 40mph”) is to chop the throttle, you completely destabilize the bike, potentially locking the rear wheel and inducing skid.This is not to say that you don’t use SOME level of engine braking when slowing the motorcycle. By nature, if you downshift through the gears while slowing, at each reengaging of the clutch you will be applying engine braking for a moment. In fact, at any moment that the clutch is engaged and you are not accelerating, you are engine braking.
Using engine-braking instead of brakes is a bad habit, and while it may not be devastating to engine-brake, it is unnecessary, inefficient, less safe, and cost ineffective.
eternal05ParticipantI won’t bore everybody with the same “my legs are too long for my bike” sob story that I already related elsewhere, but that’s why I bought a bigger bike so soon.
eternal05ParticipantI’ve got a pair of Sidi Typhoon Gore-Tex boots. Yes, they weren’t cheap. Yes, they’re imported from Italy, where they’re hand-stitched, so they rape your wallet a few times before handing over the goods. However:
1) Water-proof. Really water-proof. They’re not as waterproof as the On-Road supposedly is (apparently a guy stood in a bucket of water wearing those for an hour with no leaking), but they’ve kept my feet dry in Pacific Northwest rain.
2) Comfy. As mentioned before, they’re stiff as hell when new, but after a few weeks’ use they’ll be nice and broken-in.
3) Great feel on the bike. There is zero give in the toe. It feels a bit weird at first if you’ve never worn anything like it, but it means you never miss shifts because your boot or shoe deforms to the shifter. They also seem to have good oil-immune traction from what I can tell.
4) Ankle/foot armor. Key. If you’re not going to wear a racing boot to avoid the gaudiness, this provides a lot of similar protection without the big chunks of red plastic.
But most importantly, if you wear jeans or slacks over them, they look like normal-ish shoes. The only real give-away is the shift-area reinforcement. Observe:
eternal05ParticipantBeing a sport bike guy myself, I can’t give you suggestions, especially since the models available to you in Hong Kong might be different.
The one thing I will say, being 6’4″ myself, is that I had the same problem with foot positioning that you describe with a lot of bikes I tried out. Even the Ninja 250R I ended up with is too small for me. I can’t tell you what to get, but I can say that if it feels uncomfortable, especially if it gets in the way of you gripping the tank with your knees while shifting and braking, stay away.
eternal05ParticipantMatt,
One other consideration is that you should make sure the 250R fits you before you spring for it. Don’t just sit on it and imagine how cool you’ll look riding it down the street (which you will). Try this:
1) With the sidestand down at the dealership, hop on, keep your left foot on the floor or its peg, and put your right foot on the right peg with your toe covering the break.
2) Get comfy, assume riding position, and get your knee locked in.
3) Now try to move your foot back and forth between toes on the break and toes on the peg without substantially moving your knee or releasing a strong grip on the bike with your legs.You also may want to just sit on one of the larger sport bikes for comparison. That’s how I found out it was the bike and not my incompetence that made the 250R a bit awkward.
You may want to see the post I just made.
eternal05ParticipantKeep in mind that when you’re riding, the pegs should be resting under your toes or the balls of your feet (unless you go floorboard style on a cruiser). Your feet should not be covering the shift lever / rear brake during riding, especially when you’re new. If your throttle, brake, clutch, and steering control are still a bit rough, you can inadvertently shift or brake if you accidentally chop the throttle, let the clutch out too fast, or lose your balance.
Therefore, if leaving your toe under the shifter is uncomfortable, that’s not necessarily bad, as it’s not meant to be there. If it’s hard for you to get under the shift lever at all, or to do so easily and quickly, then you will need to adjust it or consider a different bike with more suitable ergonomics for you.
eternal05ParticipantEspecially if you’re in an economic position such that you’re not scared of the possibility of “needing” a bigger bike later on, I highly recommend the Ninja 250. I know there aren’t any in your area, but there weren’t in mine either. I had to get on a waiting list for a painful three months before mine showed up. There’s no point looking at used bikes (at least not 2008s) as they are in such high demand that used prices are not only no lower than new bike prices, but they are actually over MSRP! Same price and no warranty. Lame.
It’s a sweet-looking bike which, to anybody who doesn’t ride “real” sportsbikes, is indistinguishable from its big-bore buddies. It’s nimble as hell, and perfect for driving around on lower-speed rides. Having a 250 as your first bike will act as a natural speed regulator, and will prevent a lot of the accidents I would have had if I’d jumped onto a super-sport right away. It’ll also give you a lot more practice shifting and holding speed through turns.
Another recommendation I have is that you take additional rider courses if you can afford them. One thing that helped me feel at home on my first bike was to take an additional rider training session once or twice between MSF and when I actually bought my bike. By the time I had purchased the bike, I was more than comfortable on a 250, and had all of those initially impossible bike skills (low-speed, low-radius turning, for instance) down. If you have a friend that has a non-lethal bike and is willing to supervise you doing some exercises in a big parking lot, that might work as well, but just try to get as many hours as possible on a bike before you get your own.
eternal05ParticipantI’ve definitely discovered this to one extent or another over the past few days. It seems like I just have to get myself into a good position and then squeeze the knees to keep from sliding forward. Thanks for the confirmation
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