[eternal05]

“But again, we’re talking about stopping in a straight line, and not using a proper trail braking technique where big bikes are down right squirrely!”

THAT’s it. That’s why I see sportbikes rock the brakes at the track. Their suspension, build geometry, etc. allow them to carry trail braking safely up to corner apex, giving the appearance of later braking than some other, less-steeply-raked bikes…good call.

[eternal05]

This post is getting too long…for Firefox though (works fine for me)? It’s just getting too long

Wet leaves are terrifying, by the way. Simply terrifying. It’s one aspect of the fall I’ll be glad to be done with!

[eternal05]

I definitely need to check this out…sounds like it’d be a great learning experience. How far out of town was this eon?

[eternal05]

But right now I’ll think I’ll have to settle for making lots of excuses to come down to mountain view. Maybe I’ll stash a bike down there just for that purpose

[eternal05]

Man that looks like fun…I’m going to try to branch out a bunch and hit some far-away new tracks this year, but I would kill to have your local tracks around me! Great vid dude

[eternal05]

Well if you want to feel better, at one point in my life I was a music major! Not to say I haven’t used that education around the house on a daily basis, but the opportunities for professional application of 90% of the curriculum are…shall we say, hard to come by…

[eternal05]

Good call on the brake fade issue. I’d totally forgotten about that, which is sad, because my brake system modification was largely to combat that issue. Brake feel and ease of use (i.e. less force required on lever) is a no-brainer. Thanks!

[eternal05]

Thanks for that…’twas rad. Not sure I got it 100%, but fun read all the same

[eternal05]

Sorry. I over-spoke earlier as a result of non-representative experiences I’ve had. I spoke so assertively earlier because I’ve seen sportbikes go up against more relaxed tourers and cruisers at the track, and I’ve even seen the lead instructor for my local track’s performance riding school race around the track on his Harley just to show what can be done with any bike. In these situations, anecdotally, the sportbike “wins” on the brakes. I don’t know why, and it was silly of me to accuse Hough of “anectodal evidence” when that’s all I have to work with.

But now I have a question with respect to this quote:

“Improving items like the calipers, pads, and tires will not affect the bike’s minimum distance potential.”

Why then do MotoGP teams spend oodles of money on carbon rotors and fancy brake pads? If braking potential was already limited by inherent characteristics of frame geometry (something they’d know with all their research and data acquisition), why spend thousands of dollars per bike to make it brake harder? It makes sense to me that cruisers, especially with stickier tires, would be able to brake harder…but this doesn’t make sense to me.

[eternal05]

Using the front vs. rear is all a question of where the traction is. What I’m claiming is that there is more traction in your front wheel than you think during MOST wet riding. Moreover, both you and I have tiny weenie crappy rear brakes. If I were to stop using only the rear brake, it would take me about 4-5x as long. So even in the wet, I still clamp hard on the front when I’m straight-up-and-down. Yes, I use the rear brake too, but on my bikes, the rear is too weak to do much. I’d be dead without the front.

You’re right, however: there are special conditions in which the risk of losing traction in one wheel is greater and so more caution should be used. You cite off-road riding as an extreme (but good) example of this, and while it may be too different to be applicable to the road, it is a good example of how super-low traction conditions are a safer place for rear slides and much more punishing to front skids. It’s simply a question of when you choose to alter your braking bias. For me, it’s almost never. I’ll be careful using the front on a manhole cover, a sewer grate, some slick-looking paint, wet leaves, etc. but if I know that might be in my future (i.e. if I’m riding blind turns and can’t see ahead, or if I know the road hazards ahead, etc.), I will have already reduced my speed to compensate for my not being able to stop worth sh%&. If you’re going 50mph, you better be able to use the front brake, because the rear isn’t going to stop you before hell freezes over.

You’re right: riding on the street is about maximizing your margin of safety. Which is why I’m a big pussy on the street (as we’ve discussed earlier in this thread). I don’t advocate knowing how to get 99% braking potential from your brakes because I need that on a regular basis. On the contrary, maximizing your margin of safety starts with, as you said, judgement, the use of which controls the speed you are traveling such that you will be less likely to put yourself at risk. If you were not going so fast, and you were not taken by surprise by a light turning yellow, and you had practiced braking more under a wider variety of conditions and instinctively balanced your braking approach without having to think, you would not have failed to brake before the intersection.

These are all things that come with practice, both of judgement and motorcycle skills. I’m no master of this stuff, and I’ve only been riding for a few years, so I’m not going to pretend I have this down at all. But I will say this: you know riding is more dangerous than driving by far, and in the end, it is not just judgement that will save your ass, but judgement combined with reflex, optimal, and instantaneous reactions that will protect you from the unexpected things that come up in riding. No, it’s not about being able to brake from 120mph-0mph as fast as possible and regularly exercising that ability on the street. It’s about having the skills to get your bike to obey you, but using judgement to avoid having to use them until something inevitably crops up to try to kill you. And it will happen.

[eternal05]

…cause if not you need to go check out the results from World SBK ’09! They’ll make you super happy!

[eternal05]

…but stopping is not one of them. Don’t get me wrong: a small application of the rear brake helps slow down a bit faster and stabilize the bike in day-to-day braking. Like I said though (and this is not my arrogance speaking, but the words of many authors and coaches ), especially on a sportier bike like mine, under hard braking there is virtually no grip in the rear and it’s cake to lock.

I understand fear of an insta-down with a locked front on a slippery surface, and maybe if you’re on a painted line or crossing a patch of ice that is something to worry about, but believe me, it took me plenty of lock-ups in rain and shine to learn where the threshold of traction was, and I’ve never been down as a result. I find it much less scary than locking the rear. It’s one of the few cases in motorcycle riding when your natural instincts are EXACTLY what you need to do (you know, UNLIKE where you look, counter-steering, controlling a spinning rear, staying relaxed when the bike becomes unsettled, etc.). You’ll react before you know it, releasing the lever and restoring grip to the front before you can think about what’s going on.

I’m not saying that you should go out and lock the front all the time. I’m just saying that, if you learn where that point is in a controlled environment, you won’t be crippled by your fear to use the front brake when you need it most.

</soapbox>

[eternal05]

Especially in low-traction situations, you gotta be super careful with that rear brake. The consequences for locking it can be a lot greater as well, especially if you fishtail significantly out of line.

You can really clamp down on the front, much more so than you might think. Moreover, it’s super easy to get out of a front lock (as they say in MSF): just release. This is probably THE best thing you can do to get over queasiness with that front brake. Just go to a parking lot and overapply the front. Just slam it on. Do what you’re not supposed to do. You’ll instantly feel the front tire start to lock, the handlebars will probably go wiggly on ya, and by instinct, you’ll just let off the front brake…and voila! Problem solved. Getting comfortable locking your front, releasing, and quickly reapplying is a great way to gain confidence in your braking skills and to avoid serious trouble on the road.

[eternal05]

Sorry, the guys on my company board beat you to it. That’s what they do in every meeting…rather unsightly I might add

“Ah yes, that’s very interesting but I have one counter-argument…” *zzzzzzzzip* *GASP!*

[eternal05]

I’m with you 100%. I think the huge deficiency in US-available small-displacement bikes is really sad, and one of the unfortunate side-effects of our nationwide obsession with size. That said, I’m all about running my GSX-R600 track-style, but I just caved and got a supermoto bike myself. I highly recommend it, especially as a change of pace from all the sport track riding.

Welcome, and feel free to ramble on!

[Author]

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