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Continued challenges for new riders
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December 14, 2009 at 1:48 pm #23696MunchParticipant
“I don’t quite get why waterproof gear is that important since you can just wear a cheap rain suit over the regular gear”
Not sure where you are located but places like the SE US. Pop up Thunderstorms can and will catch you in the most un practical places. Hauling at highway speeds with traffic is not a cool time to try and dip off to don the pull over rain gear. If you try to beat it out to get to a bridge… chances are your going to get wet before hand anyways and kill the need for the $40 rain suit. I have Frogg Toggs that go in my Saddle bags for when it is just to damn hot to go for full on water proof priced gear, but to be honest those are for the days where the rain chances are over 70% otherwise I just enjoy the cool down of the rain (oh yea cruiser w/windshield = no feeling like I am getting pelted by kids throwing rocks). Another reason also is depending on what your plans are, cargo space is a premium on bikes…yours more so then mine. If you plan on doing some quick errand shopping you will need just that much more space.
December 14, 2009 at 3:56 pm #23699eonParticipantAll RevIt gear relies on the inner layer to be waterproof, as do most brands. They claim making the outer level waterproof would reduce the breathability of the jacket. I’m sure that’s true but adding the rain layer presumably has the same affect. So now I have a jacket that cannot breath and gets soggy. What they are trying to do is make it an all season jacket. In the warmer drier months you remove the inner layer and your jacket is still comfortable. The point I was trying to make about the climate is that I have very wet winters and very dry summers. Makes no sense for me to have a jacket that tries to do both but necessarily has to compromise on each.
I actually have the RevIt Turbine jacket as my summer jacket and I like it a lot, which is why I was looking for their winter jacket. I could add the rain suit like you suggest but it comes down to practicality. I already have up to 3 layers on (an external back protector, my jacket and then a reflective bib). Adding a rain suit to this would just be a huge pain. If it was to be a once in a blue moon thing then I could live with that. But here, it’s probably more 50/50. I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve left the house and it is dry, ride a couple of miles and it is pouring. I either put the rain suit on all the time or face having to stop and put it on MANY times. Makes more sense for me for the rain suit to be part of the jacket.
December 14, 2009 at 5:20 pm #23700eternal05ParticipantEspecially in low-traction situations, you gotta be super careful with that rear brake. The consequences for locking it can be a lot greater as well, especially if you fishtail significantly out of line.
You can really clamp down on the front, much more so than you might think. Moreover, it’s super easy to get out of a front lock (as they say in MSF): just release. This is probably THE best thing you can do to get over queasiness with that front brake. Just go to a parking lot and overapply the front. Just slam it on. Do what you’re not supposed to do. You’ll instantly feel the front tire start to lock, the handlebars will probably go wiggly on ya, and by instinct, you’ll just let off the front brake…and voila! Problem solved. Getting comfortable locking your front, releasing, and quickly reapplying is a great way to gain confidence in your braking skills and to avoid serious trouble on the road.
December 14, 2009 at 5:35 pm #23701eonParticipantThis raises an interesting question. Some time ago I think Elwood posted something saying in the wet you are supposed to use more rear brake than front. Something like 80/20 rear/front. I’m sure he got this from somewhere (Ride Like A Pro?) but it struck me as odd and I meant to go read up on it. Of course I never did. Personally I don’t change the proportions between front/back but I do try to give myself more time and avoid heavy braking, especially on painted lines, metal etc.
What’s your take on this?
December 14, 2009 at 7:21 pm #23702Gary856ParticipantMunch and eon, thanks for the explanation on the unpredictability of weather and the importance of waterproof gear in your climate zones. Makes sense now to this rain-riding newbie – me. I’m in San Jose, CA, where the weather is super predictable, especially with weather.com’s hour-by-hour forecast and radar map. I can see the rain coming a week ahead, and on a given day we either have rain or we don’t, almost no surprises. I’ve forgotten the thunderstorms that came at a moment’s notice I experienced in my youth, growing up in Taiwan, over 30 years ago.
Eon, good info on the conflicting outer-shell’s breathability vs. waterproof requirements. I did not realize that you had already done the research on Rev’It, and I did not realize that most textile outer-shell are not waterproof. Have you considered Aerostitch, and would their products work for you? Every manufacturer tries to offer a 4-seasons jacket because that seems to be what people want, but I’ve since realized that there’s no such a thing, even for the temperate California climate. Any given jacket is good for 3-seasons, at best, in my opinion. We’re better off having two jackets, one geared toward the warmer months and another toward the colder ones. Or you need an electric heated liner, which is yet another thing to buy and deal with (power consumption).
December 14, 2009 at 7:54 pm #23703Gary856ParticipantWhile traction on “clean” wet pavement is surprisingly good (up to 80% of dry from what I read) to most people and the front brake remains to be the dominate stopper on “clean” wet pavement, that traction disappears on slick materials such painted surfaces, metal surfaces, mud, wet leaves, etc. When you lock up the front on those slippery surfaces, the bike tends to go down in an instant, faster than most people could react. With the rear, you’d fishtail but still have steering control. The unpredictability of traction is why most people advocate biasing the braking force toward the rear when riding in the wet, and slowing down in general to reduce the need for heavy braking. And you certainly want to be extra smooth, less abrupt, to avoid locking up either brake.
Eternal is right that threshold braking practices would be invaluable for everyone. I’m guilty for not doing more of that.
December 14, 2009 at 8:32 pm #23704eonParticipantI have not seriously looked at Aerostitch but I did come across a set of pants online that looked good until I noticed they were only 500 Denier. Equivalent Teknic pants are half the price and 600 Denier. Unless there are subtleties to the whole protection level I am not aware of then I’m not sure why the huge price difference for a seemingly inferior product. When you have a name you can add $$$ on but Teknic has a reputation for good gear at a good price, and I’ve been happy with my jacket.
If a jacket is advertised with a rain liner then I am assuming the outer shell is not waterproof. The brands that do not have a rain liner that I came across were Teknic, FirstGear and Aerostitch. Probably should look at Aerostitch in more detail.
December 14, 2009 at 8:49 pm #23705eonParticipantBy concentrating on the back brake you are giving up most of your stopping power in order to keep steering control but are almost guaranteeing a back end slide. I would prefer to stop quicker in a straight line. If I feel the need to swerve I can let go the brakes. If I don’t grab the front then I should be able to avoid a front lock up. I need to practice that more too but I would be careful about deliberately causing a front lock up. I locked mine up during my ERC and it scared the bejeebus out of me. Did not go down but it was a scary moment.
A friend of mine watched Ride Like A Pro and came away enthusing over using the back brake. I have not watched it yet but the message he took from it seemed to contradict everything else I had learned. I really need to go back to Proficient Motorcycling and see what he says about braking in the wet.
December 14, 2009 at 9:57 pm #23706eternal05Participant…but stopping is not one of them. Don’t get me wrong: a small application of the rear brake helps slow down a bit faster and stabilize the bike in day-to-day braking. Like I said though (and this is not my arrogance speaking, but the words of many authors and coaches ), especially on a sportier bike like mine, under hard braking there is virtually no grip in the rear and it’s cake to lock.
I understand fear of an insta-down with a locked front on a slippery surface, and maybe if you’re on a painted line or crossing a patch of ice that is something to worry about, but believe me, it took me plenty of lock-ups in rain and shine to learn where the threshold of traction was, and I’ve never been down as a result. I find it much less scary than locking the rear. It’s one of the few cases in motorcycle riding when your natural instincts are EXACTLY what you need to do (you know, UNLIKE where you look, counter-steering, controlling a spinning rear, staying relaxed when the bike becomes unsettled, etc.). You’ll react before you know it, releasing the lever and restoring grip to the front before you can think about what’s going on.
I’m not saying that you should go out and lock the front all the time. I’m just saying that, if you learn where that point is in a controlled environment, you won’t be crippled by your fear to use the front brake when you need it most.
</soapbox>
December 14, 2009 at 10:09 pm #23707MunchParticipantReally have to be careful with this topic folks. There is a lot of varying situations that will call for a different reaction…that’s where saddle time and practice helps.
Some things that will change the correct answer:
Cruiser or Sport
Dry high traction surface
Wet slippery limited traction
Gravel or loose traction
Direction of intended travel (or trying not to)
Speed of travel
Traffic congestion
Reaction time and acting on it
So many varying degrees of changes that can be made there is no ONE umbrella answer. For instance if you are on a semi slick road with plenty straight travel distance and need to hammer the brakes ( lets say Deer) more back brake might be more prudent. Sure the rear will skid and can fish tail but if you get enough practice at it (like those of us in rural areas) you know how to keep it from going wide, and to stay on it until stopping. Though this would also be a good point of argument for the ABS crowd. Jamming the front brakes are a good answer here also though most instincts will be to naturally lock up all the oh shit muscles and a slight turn and loss of traction in the front will bring you down quickly. Practice the hard stops as mentioned above and you can minimize that risk. However we are addressing beginners, not gray beards.
Change any of those variables and the right answer or “close enough for government work” answers can apply.December 14, 2009 at 11:49 pm #23709eonParticipantWell, I don’t think any of us are pretending to be experts. Any complete beginner reading this should at least understand it is a discussion of differing opinions and take everything said with a healthy dose of skepticism.
If you reduce the variables to wet slippery road in a straight line where you need to stop as quickly as possible with a potential need to swerve, what is your best braking strategy?
I understand that cruisers are less prone to rear lock ups than sport bikes, but is the fundamental principle that most of your stopping power comes from the front different? I have never seen that so I will assume it is still true.
So I am struggling to understand your deer example. By not using the front brake you are increasing your stopping distance. By locking the rear (assuming you do) you have just increased your stopping distance even more. And once you lock it you pretty much have to keep it locked or else risk doing a Buzz Lightyear impression. The only benefit is you can still steer but I am doubtful if you could steer around said deer with a fishtailing locked rear (man, that was poetry
I honestly believe Gary would have stopped before the red light if he had used more front brake.
December 15, 2009 at 12:16 am #23711MunchParticipantI didn’t say not to use the fronts at all…. just not to jamm on it… this will assist in shortening the distance.. and yes you can steer with the front loosed up to a degree. Pull that front brake too hard and you have 2 options both is up to big man upstairs. Cruisers really aren’t all that less likely to lock up but you do have other way to counter that, one is there is decent weight back there and 2 something I was taught by a gray beard was to slide a bit back on the seat (when reason sticks in your mind) to get more weight back there…
Only reason I can talk on this specifically….. I had to encounter this last week……dang rut season.December 15, 2009 at 7:42 am #23718eonParticipantWell I’ve got the good book in front of me and on page 119 Mr Hough tells us “in the rain, you have less total traction available for braking, but you can share the braking almost equally between front and back”. I think the theory is since you are not braking as hard (due to less traction) there is less weight transfer to the front therefore you have a more 50/50 split than in the dry.
You also goes onto claim in More PM that “It might surprise you that many cruisers and touring bikes out-stop the sportbikes”. He argues that race bikes are not designed for quick stops but for cornering quickly. I guess the short wheel base helps cornering but causes the rear to lift under heavy braking. This loss of traction means you cannot use all the power of the front brake available to you (or you would flip over).
And lastly he tells us studies like the Hurt report have shown riders in accidents made critical errors when braking. The primary sin being using too much rear brake and not enough front (this last bit is not talking about wet conditions, just in general).
Well that was a worthwhile refresher.
December 15, 2009 at 4:43 pm #23713Gary856Participant“I honestly believe Gary would have stopped before the red light if he had used more front brake.”
I agree with that. I even said that I could have used more front brake (if I really needed to), but there’s more to it. In that specific stop, it was in the beginning of the ride, I was going a little too fast (going about 50 mph with a 40 mph speed limit), got surprised by the light turning yellow, became indecisive whether to go or stop, so I eneded up needing to brake more heavily than I normally do, wet or dry. I knew the painted area (arrows, cross-walk, etc.) was coming up in the intersection, didn’t want to risk a slide out with heavy front braking on the painted surfaces, so I started with both brakes but reduced the front braking pressure as I got close to the intersection, knowing if I overshot the cross-walk it wouldn’t be by that much, given that there was no pedestrian, I had a clear view of the wide open intersection and cars on the cross-street have not started moving yet. So I overshot the intersection by about 6 feet, used that extra distance to buy some braking margin, but still in a (kind of) controlled manner. I’m not disputing that this wasn’t a rider error, started with going too fast.
By the way, about 2 hours later toward the end of the ride, almost the same situation occured again (I was still going too fast and I just continued thru the intersection.
To me, the whole business of riding the street safely is not about having the ultimate skills or squeezing the last ounce of physical performance out of the equiment. I work on improving my skills continuously to increase my safety margin, but safety is more about judgment, knowing what I can get away with, and knowing where I got to slow the hell down and not take any chances even if I had the skills to.
December 15, 2009 at 4:49 pm #23710Gary856Participanteon and eternal, are you advocating no front/rear braking bias adjustment when riding in the dry vs. wet? That controdicts all the professional opinions I read in various books and websites about wet riding. Tracking riding is about exploring the limits, where as street riding is about maximizing the margin of safety. On the MP3 w/ 2 front wheels that eon has, I’d imagine the margin of safety of front lock-up in the wet is higher than a normal motorcycle w/ just 1 front wheel.
At the risk of over simplification but to illustrate there is a different between dry and wet braking:
– On “clean” wet pavement, going straight, normal street riding, not much adjustment is needed compared to dry. The front brake can and will provide most of the stopping power.
– On “special” surfaces (painted lines, rail road crossing, man hole cover, mud, wet leaves, etc.) that may have decent traction when dry, but have very low traction when wet, avoid touching the brakes in the wet, and certainly not the front brake.
– Wet traction is a continuous variable between the above two extremes, so you need to adjust your front/rear braking bias according to the condition, speed, deceleration needed, your experience, etc. Since you can’t tell with 100% certainty where you are in that traction continuum, the strategy from expert advice is to be more conservative – a) slow down, so you don’t need that much braking force in the first place; b) since you’re going slower, you can afford to give up some front braking power and rely more on rear braking power, in exchange for the lower chance of locking up the front.
Off-road (low traction) riders heavily “bias” their braking toward the rear to reduce the risk of front lock up. The point is not to say that you don’t use the front brake in the wet, but that the front/rear bias should to be adjusted based on the traction available to you.
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