[eternal05]

What kind of riding do you want to do? Commuting? Casual cruising? Ripping up the twisties? Eventually hit the track? Do you want your bike to be comfortable or sporty?

[eternal05]

In many ways, an SV650 is much easier to ride than a supersport. In otherways, however, it’s about the same. You get basically the same acceleration up to a point (0-60mph is only 0.1 seconds slower in an SV650 than in a GSX-R600), and the brakes are basically same (dual quad-piston calipers and huge rotors). It’s just as top-heavy as a super-sport, and if you get the SV650SF, you get a similarly aggressive riding position.

So…good beginner bike? No, not really. Reasonable bike to start on if you are careful and aware of its potential to end you? Sure. It won’t be as easy to learn on as a smaller, lighter bike, but like you say, it might keep you happy longer, and that’s worth it to some people.

[eternal05]

Welcome to the forum!

First off, the ER-6n is NOT a supersport, but it is at the upper bound of what most of us here recommend. For the first 60-80 mph, there’s not much difference in acceleration between an ER-6n/Ninja650R and the supersport Ninja ZX-6R, but the bike is much friendlier ergonomically and in terms of road manners. The bottom line: if the ER-6n makes you really happy, you’ve sat on it and it’s comfy, and you’re willing to accept the responsibility of a more demanding bike, go for it.

If you want a Ninja 250 instead, you really don’t have to worry about resale, especially if you buy used. Most people are able to recoup full or near-full cost when selling their 250s, so if you did want to upgrade after a year, it really wouldn’t hurt your wallet much. If anything, the experience on a smaller bike would probably help you tremendously on the bigger bike. Personally, I believe that learning to ride a less capable bike at its full potential is a much better way to start than riding a very capable bike poorly and in fear. But to each their own

[eternal05]

“I never have an argument.”

Yeah, this is a common test, and a great one. But to each their own…just not in my group ride

[eternal05]

That’s an impressive achievement, and one that you should be proud of! Good luck following through on the remainder of your goals.

As far as your weight affecting handling, I would think so, though it’s always an area of debate among riders (and cyclists). While I think Munch may have a point that you’ll feel quicker off the line, I’d imagine that the biggest difference will be when you are doing more aggressive riding. I predict that you’ll find that bike turn-in, especially change of direction from one side to the other, gets quicker and more responsive. Let us know if you notice anything though; I’m really curious now!

[eternal05]

It did take a while to set up, but not because of laying down cones. The thing that took longest was trying to come up with a variety of different corners (constant/increasing/decreasing radius turns, big sweepers, hairpins, etc.) and then making them flow together and fit the parking lot. The first course I made was so tight that even her tiny sport hatchback couldn’t make some of the turns.

Anyway, I’ll be sure to invite you out one of these weekends for some fun!

I totally agree about PNWRiders. I think I still have a single-digit post count over there…most threads are just silly. In fact, even the threads I have posted in are just silly. Glad to know those sportbikers weren’t giving us too bad a name

As a side note, how ridiculous was that chopper? Despite having bright cones set up, EVERYBODY drove right through the course, even when our car was peeling through it. The chopper even tried to follow the course a bit, but hit the first hairpin and gave up! Choppers with that kind of fork rake are a rare beast in Seattle.

[eternal05]

“What this DOES prove is that this crap needs to be saved for the track.”

Couldn’t agree more. The fact that there’s an entire YouTube channel almost entirely dedicated to dummies on sportsbikes crashing on Mulholland tells you something.

[eternal05]

If you watch the slow-motion carefully, you can see that the rear tire maintains traction while the front of the bike slips out. In other words, he crashed because he lost grip on his front tire. I don’t see the brake lights going on, so I don’t think he braked. Similarly, though you can’t really tell from that angle, his body position didn’t seem horrible (not leaning much more than he needed to), I don’t really think he was leaning that hard.

Not too confident, but my vote’s on slick road surface (sand, oil, etc.) or bad tires. He went down REALLY fast without leaning much. If his tires were too new, too worn, or too cold, his lean angle might have been too great. All the same, it really looks to me like somebody hitting an oil slick or sand patch.

One thing you’ll notice is that he crashed on corner exit. Leading up to the crash, his engine was spinning down (listen to the engine sound), despite the fact that he was coming onto the straight. For whatever reason, this is wrong on his part. For one, by the time you hit corner apex (at the LATEST), you should be back on the gas. If you’re a conservative street rider (which I’d hope for), you’d be on the throttle again (slightly) immediately after turn-in. Getting on the gas helps stabilize the bike and move some weight back to the rear tire. In combination with standing the bike up more as he came onto the straight, this may have taken enough weight off the front tire and reduced lean angle enough that, even with a poor road surface, he may have kept the bike up.

[eternal05]

Here’s an example of losing the rear tire, rather than the front. This is your standard big sportbike error: too much gas too soon, with too much lean. You can hear the engine rev up as the rear tire slides out. A second before he crashes, you can also hear the rider cutting in and out of throttle jerkily. Especially leaned over like that, getting on and off the gas is a recipe for disaster.

Believe it or not, this guy’s really lucky he doesn’t have better reflexes. If he’d noticed the slide and quickly chopped the throttle, he might’ve highsided instead, which would have been mighty painful.

[eternal05]

But they only protect from spherical anvil hits and food-borne illness.

[eternal05]

You’re not being attacked. Moreover, the thread wasn’t sidetracked at all. You wanted a discussion about thinking ahead and preparing for turns, introduced some suggested techniques, and got discussion in return. Believe it or not, when I nitpick you for stuff, it’s not me trying to be a douche. It’s that, much like you said yourself, I don’t want our site pushing “beginner advice” that isn’t for beginners, and that leaves out crucial details. A technique is not just a technique. Applied incorrectly or in the wrong context its a mistake, and not a technique. If you re-read my posts, you’ll find that all I’m trying to bring about is greater understanding of the trade-offs involved. Feel free to disagree all you want, but let’s not make this a fight.

My worrying about going too fast and “the scary lean angle thing” came about because your original posts implied to me a view of the street that I felt was unsafe. For instance, you said “It takes time to build up the confidence to lean hard into a scary corner.” I took this to be an indication of over-riding, as if a corner was scary, I’d slow down and not “lean hard.” You then said I read you wrong, and I didn’t bring it up again. End of story.

Seriously. Not tryin’ to be a dick.

[eternal05]

If you’re going to debate a point, at least read the post you’re debating

My post: “So yes, you’re right in that hanging off always allows you to decrease lean angle through a turn, and so in some sense, it’s always ‘safer’ to hang off…There are, however, good reasons I believe you SHOULDN’T hang off on the street: [REEZUNZ]…”

Your response: “hanging off buys you extra margin…so I don’t know why one would not want to hang off when cornering…”

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My post: “Your use of ‘hanging off’ isn’t wrong. You mean ‘hang off’ exactly the same way that we mean ‘hang off’: one cheek off the seat, upper body pushed down and to the inside of the bike.”

Your response: “‘Hang off’ (I’ll use it to mean leaning your body into the turn)…”

For the record, just as you wouldn’t say “trail brake” to mean “brake on a forest trail,” you shouldn’t say “hang off” unless you mean “hang off.” The phrase has a well-defined meaning in the motorcycle community, and using it another way can be confusing (see above thread of posts for reference ).

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My post: “While you can get reasonably ‘locked in’ to your bike to hang off at the track, there’s no doubt that two legs firmly clamped into the tank beats one.”

Your response: “I never said that you should hang off to the point of compromising your bike control or becoming a traffic hazard.”

My point is that, if your inside leg comes off the tank, you’re compromising your control and your stability on the bike. Therefore, hanging off inherently compromises your control. If you keep both legs firmly on the sides of the tank, you’re totally fine.

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My post: “When I mention track riding techniques in response to your posts…it’s because you’re posting about track-derived riding techniques applied to street riding, and I think it’s useful to compare the way they’re used on the track vs. the street. In particular, it’s useful to think about why they’re used on the track and what, if anything, is gained by applying them on the street.“

Your response: “I purposely shy away from mentioning ‘knee down’ and ‘track technique’ because I don’t want new riders to confuse a basic riding technique discussion with going fast. In fact, I think it’s often misleading and counter-productive to say GP racers do this and that because they’re riding for an entirely different purpose, not to mention the totally different environment, equipment, and the extreme talent level involved.”

Right. Hanging off is not a “basic riding technique.” If it was, they’d teach you to “hang off” in the MSF BRC, or at the very least, the IRC. But they don’t. Where do they teach you to hang off? At high-performance riding schools and track days.

So why do I keep making your street-riding discussions come back to the track? It’s because you’re talking about track-derived techniques. If you’re going to bring a track technique to the street, you better be damn sure it makes sense, because as you say it’s a “totally different environment.” Perhaps for different reasons, Alan and I are both saying that it doesn’t make sense to hang off on the street.

Moreover, I mention track riders and racers (which are NOT at all the same thing; I am one, but not the other) precisely because they are at the very far extreme. If they don’t always do [track technique X], then maybe you should rethink doing it on the street. THAT was my point.

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Look, this whole thing started because you gave the EXACT same spiel that a track instructor would give about corner setup, including moving your hips off the side of the seat, talked about hanging off, etc.

If all you mean is “move your upper body weight towards the corner,” then nobody disagrees with you. In fact, I said myself:

“I still use my bodyweight to minimize lean angle on the street. My upper body moves a bit … into the turn…”

[eternal05]

Alan and I were getting at exactly the same thing. We both agree that what you said is correct, but oddly, despite the fact that you tout a street focus, your advice is better suited to the track. When I mention track riding techniques in response to your posts (like the one about clutchless shifting), it’s because you’re posting about track-derived riding techniques applied to street riding, and I think it’s useful to compare the way they’re used on the track vs. the street. In particular, it’s useful to think about why they’re used on the track and what, if anything, is gained by applying them on the street.

Your use of “hanging off” isn’t wrong. You mean “hang off” exactly the same way that we mean “hang off”: one cheek off the seat, upper body pushed down and to the inside of the bike. As far as the difference between “hanging off” and “getting a knee down” goes, they’re the same thing. The only difference is the bike’s lean angle. If you’re hanging off and you lean into a turn hard enough, your knee will touch down. Like Alan said, however, most people obsess about getting their knees down rather than maintaining proper form for the situation, and often stretch their legs to meet the ground when they don’t need to. If anything, you want to be able to get through the turn just as fast (or faster) than somebody else without using up all your available lean angle. If you watch the GP guys, they go through plenty of turns without touching a knee, and often when they do touch down, it’s only to feel where the ground is, not because they’re leaned over all the way. Anyway, I’m getting sidetracked.

So yes, you’re right in that hanging off always allows you to decrease lean angle through a turn, and so in some sense, it’s always “safer” to hang off. But the point I’m making is that, at “safe” speeds, your bike can already maintain perfectly good traction (on dry, clean roads) without hanging off. In the wet, or otherwise low-traction conditions, the solution is not to hang off, but to slow down. On the track, hanging-off works great on a wet corner. You can maintain more speed in and get on the throttle earlier on the way out. Worst case on the brakes is that you lose the front, low-siding into the runoff area. Scrape off some pride and a few bucks worth of paint, but no biggy. On the street, your ability to quickly brake for an unexpected hazard, or change course mid-corner for that matter, is severely impeded by a wet road, AND you have all kinds of obstacles and moving vehicles to hit. Without hanging off, you will have plenty of grip through a corner even in the wet, assuming you’re going the appropriate speed for the conditions.

There are, however, good reasons I believe you SHOULDN’T hang off on the street. First, hanging off makes you a wider target. Especially when you’re on a windy two-lane road, that extra width at the apex of each corner means less room between you and oncoming traffic. Second, and probably more important to me, is that hanging off subtly impedes your control of the bike and makes it harder to stay on in the event of a bump or slide. While you can get reasonably “locked in” to your bike to hang off at the track, there’s no doubt that two legs firmly clamped into the tank beats one.

I still use my bodyweight to minimize lean angle on the street. My upper body moves a bit (not as much as on track) into the turn, but both knees stay planted to the tank. In certain corners I might even scooch my hips a few inches into the inside of the corner as well. That’s my personal preference on the street. What do you do Alan? Just keep it straight up-and-down?

[eternal05]

…I dunno man. It’s my personal philosophy, and loads of people completely disagree with me, but I’m not really down to push that hard on the street. If you need a “scary lean angle” to make the corner, I think you’re going to fast. Granted, I know you’re also just addressing people’s general fears of leaning, but your post makes me think of you taking blind downhill hairpins at 50, hanging off to the side. Not recommended…

[eternal05]

I went to the west coast’s fancy-schmanciest private high school. I’m not kidding. Try being a senior on financial aid getting dropped off by your parents in the back seat of an old VW compact car while all of the newly-16 kids two grades below you are pulling up in new BMWs, Jags, Mercedes, Corvettes, etc. I know it’s not fun, believe me. The consolation is that–and this always holds true–nobody worth your time will care what you drive. Every time one of my jackass classmates totaled their brand new Saleen Mustang (only to have it replaced by an AMG SL65 with a souped-up sound system), I lost a little faith in mankind, but in the end, they all turned out to be useless wastes of space that are only feeding themselves right now because, after failing out of college (not because they’re dumb, but because they don’t try), their loaded mommies and daddies had jobs for them at their top-notch law and investment firms. *Ahem* Right, on to your questions.

I’m 6’4″ as well, and I did have to make a small modification to my first bike, a Ninja 250R. Adjustable footpegs installed, and voila! Comfortable riding. Your weight’s not an issue at all, so don’t even bother mentioning that to anybody else. A Ninja 250 can comfortably haul over 300 lbs, and any larger bike won’t even break a sweat. All of the other bikes you mention are great candidates too, so you really can’t go wrong. Go sit on each of these bikes, see what feels comfortable to you, see what you like best on paper, and figure out which one of them excites you the most. Problem solved.

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