[Matt]

500cc V4 pouring out twin bazooka exhausts. Might just be the most beautiful sounding motorcycle ever made. It can purr like a small v-twin and scream like an I4. And the whole time is is just yelling “faster faster harder harder”… It is not a bike for polite company

I hope my girlfriend doesn’t read this post…

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Mazda 6 sedan, v6.

Lots of Mazdas so far

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

It is my understanding that Flashing lights are illegal. Only service vehicles (police, ambulance, fire) are allowed flashing lights.

There is a benz that flashes its brake lights when you really stomp on the brakes to warn people behind you – proven very effective BUT merc had to apply for a special permit to trial these cars in the US.

Do not run your high beams during the day, yes they are brighter, but they are also aimed right at the eyes of other drivers. It WILL piss them off, and it may cause on coming traffic to focus on you (and thus drive towards you). Don’t think it’ll annoy/blind drivers, ask your MSF instructor what it is like teaching a class where someone uses high beams. They didn’t have kind words for the guy who kept blinding them with his high beams in my ERC course.

You want to be bright and visible? Wear a high visibility jacket or vest. Period. Nothing will get you seen better in any condition than a high vis yellow jacket. Are they cool looking? Not really (though I did see some BMW ones that looked good, and the dealership sold through 50 of them in a week because of it).

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Don’t just work on your clutch, work on your body positioning. At a full lock turn your should be able to have the bike almost perfectly upright with practice). Move your shoulders laterally in the direction of the turn, using your outside knee to hook yourself to the bike. If you feel like your shoulders are totally outside the bike and you’re only hanging on by one cheek, you’re probably only half as far leaned over as you think.

This moves your centre of gravity over enough to let the bike stay upright through the U-turn.

I was taught ( and it works for me ) to control your speed with a combination of clutch and rear brake (like you are doing) with more emphasis on subtle clutch control than rear brake usage. The rear brake isn’t going to make you fall at these speeds unless you stomp on it. The front brake however is an absolute no-no, keep your hand well away from the lever.
Keep your throttle constant, no need to blip, no need to roll on or off, that is what the clutch is for. But try using more revs. On the 250 (so WAY less torque than your beast) I keep at about 5000rpm (power band starts about 7000). I’m guessing on the Bandit that 3-4k would be about right.

The instructors emphasized that the engine should be making noise in low speed maneuvers. Low speed high control of a motorcycle is not a silent art. As you get better you’ll naturally start using less revs.

Hope this helps.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Yup, as a general rule the fewer the cylinders, the less HP, but more torque. So more of a feeling of acceleration, and better start.

I do joke about a fair bit. I come across as stiff because I have a fairly formal writing style. I also don’t joke too much on forums because inevitably someone misreads what I’m trying to say and gets all pissy. So easier just to keep the my mouth shut. In person I’m a loud mouthed jack ass with a sarcastic sense of humour

(oh, “only” 33hp for the bike according to here: http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_zz-r_250_2002.php )
The change from a 60hp 500cc V4 to a 250cc I2 was big, but mostly in feel and attitude than the way I rode it. I was still too new to stretch the VF500’s legs. I would shift after just starting to taste the powerband. The big thing was that bike wanted to go faster. With every shift I knew the bike wanted to hold longer (I was shifting at 8000, red line is 12000). Every corner felt like I was taking it too slow (even when I was speeding). The bike *loved* having its neck wrung, and wringing its neck on public roads isn’t a good way to keep your license

Handling wise… The honda braked WAY harder. Turn in was pretty much the same, but like I said, it wanted to take corners at twice the limit

Yea, I know the ZZR is a way better bike to learn on, but I miss the Interceptor. That was a proper hooligan bike

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Yes, I REALLY like that… I’ll take two please.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

The shadow is faster than a 250.
It only has 38hp ( http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/honda_vt_600_c_shadow_vlx_2002.php ) but it has 35 foot pounds of torque. Because of the very tall gearing (only four gears) it accelerates in a very “lazy” fashion, but it is still fast enough to out accelerate traffic. I am speaking from personal experience here.

If you’re ever in a situation where you are in physical danger because the bike isn’t accelerating fast enough then:
a) use your brakes
b) swerve

If neither of those are options, then I’m sorry but you’ve screwed up pretty bad and made a long line of mistakes to get there. No matter how fast the bike, in a reaction situation it will accelerate slower than it can decelerate or swerve.

Aka, don’t try to get in front of the guy who’s about to merge onto you, hit the brakes and drop back a car length, it is faster – or better yet get into another lane. If you are boxed in on three sides and the only option is to accelerate you’ve made several serious errors already.

For reference:
Vulcan 500 makes 33 foot pounds of torque ( http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_en_500_vulcan_2000.php ) which is less, but the engine can spin higher to produce more hp, and more importantly, it has a 6 speed transmission to let you stay in the powerband better.

The S40 makes 33 foot pounds of torque, put htrough a 5 speed transmission ( http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/suzuki_ls_650_p_savage_2003.php ).

Booze:
I own a 2003 Kawi ZZR-250 (basically a Ninja 250 with a slightly more powerful engine, 36hp at crank, and much improved suspension). My previous bike was a Honda Interceptor VF500F.
My parents own (and thus I get to play on regularly) a 1983 Suzuki 450GS and a 2002 Honda Shadow VLX. Mom had a 1983 Honda CB250 Custom (old Rebel).

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

If you search on this site I wrote a post where I used math to show just how much weight affects motorcycles. What I showed was that for a cruiser, about a 250 pound rider is where a 250cc cruiser starts being slow enough that I wouldn’t be happy on it in traffic. So, for a 300 pound rider, I would go up that next step to a 500/600/650.

My suggestion would be a Vulcan 500 (wide tank, feels like a much bigger bike), or a Shadow VLX (600) is he wants something slightly more narrow.

The S40 / Savage 650 is a pretty small bike, it is closer in feel to a 250 than the rest of the 600ish cruisers. So going with one of the bigger ones may be more comfortable. But I’m 6’0″ and can sit on an S40 without issue. A few people on this forum started on the S40s and loved them. The lower weight seems to make it a good starter bike even if it is a 650cc engine.

I have no experience with the V-star, so I won’t offer anything there.

The big thing is, try on as many bikes as possible to find what is comfy, and keep the CCs to a minimum. A salesman will tell him he’ll want a 750cc or 900cc bike because of his weight, and I think that is bollox. And of the 500/600/650s wil have enough power to move him around faster than traffic (andif he’s looking for more than that, he’s looking at the wrong style of bike to begin with).

Elwood wrote a really good bit on starting out on a sportster 883, and I suggest you have your friend read it:
https://www.bestbeginnermotorcycles.com/forum/forum-topic/1202/absolutely-new-rider

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

One of Kawi’s design principles is that their bikes must never be mistaken for another brand of bike (Hence Kawi green).
While that bike certainly looks right our of 1993, personally I’d leave it stock.

It’s like a pug, it is cute precisely because it is ugly…

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

I take flak from one guy at the office for riding a “jap-scrap piss pot”. He constantly asks when I’m going to move up to a “Real Bike”. I then ask him how long his “real bike” has spent in the garage in pieces and then I enjoy the silence (he is fixing-up / farkling his harley, so it has spent the entire season in the garage – he hasn’t ridden it yet this year. Though that is a comment on him and the amount of work he is putting into customizing his bike, not harely reliability).

Around here anyways, the divisions in bike cultures are 99% for tease. A harley rider will sneer at my “piss pot” and I’ll comment that his bike has flatulence. It’s all good.

When I’m out on my ZZR I get waves from almost everyone. Even when I’m in Hells Angels territory (now there are people you do NOT make HD jokes around) I wave and get waved back to. I haven’t had any issue with BMW owners either – usually if they aren’t waving it is because they are fiddling with a GPS or some other farkle

In fact, the only category that reliably doesn’t wave are scooter riders. I’m guessing scooter riders always wonder why whenever a motorcycle passes the rider is pointing at the ground with two fingers…

Two wheels is a community, we each find a niche, and each niche has its asshats. Don’t bother trying to get their acceptance, just enjoy the other 95% of riders who consider you one of the fold.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Vulcan 500 is 440 pounds dry. It is NOT anywhere near as light as a 250 (most of which are in the 300-350 pound range).
http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_vulcan_500_ltd_-_en_500_c_2005.php

The Vulcan uses a parrallel twin engine, not a classic Inline-4 sport bike engine. While it does rev higher than a V-twin and make slightly less torque, it is still a twin, not an four.
The Vulcan engine starts tame but builds. It is a very linear powerplant, but can still go like stink. The trick is to let the revs build. Where most cruisers are hitting redline the Vulcan 500 is just entering its stride.

The Vulcan feels like a physically larger bike than the VLX. My mother chose the VLX because the vulcan had too wide a tank for her comfort. A co worker chose the vulcan over the VLX because he liked the wider tank and felt the VLX was too narrow a bike. All about preference.

As for shifting, none of the bikes have Tachs, but at least in the case of the Rebel and VLX they have shift markers on the speedo. It really does become second nature very quickly, even if you’ve never driven a standard transmission before.

Lastly, how common is hopping onto a 600? Very. but not because it is the better choice.
It is common because a lot of people are told to go bigger than they should, by friends, family, and sales people. Just because it is common doesn’t make it the easiest or most enjoyable path.
As I said, wait for your MSF before maing up your mind. If you can wring the necks of the 250s in class and feel bored, then the bigger bike is the way to go. If you ever struggle with a skill, take the easier route and spend a season on a smaller bike. You’ll have just as much fun, and be a better ride for it.
I can’t tell you how many people I see “duck walking” their bikes at lights. You can tell right away that they didn’t get enough training, or that they simply started out on a bike that is too heavy for them, and now they have poor and possibly dangerous habits (besides looking dumb, putting your foot down too early when coming to a stop is a great way to roll or break an ankle).

IF you do find that yanking open the throttle on a 250 cruiser in a small area doesn’t get a rise out of the hairs on the back of your neck, and you want a fast bike, I’d say look at the Blast or the Vulcan over the Shadow VLX. It is geared very tall and doesn’t really yank you off the line like a more sporting bike will – it is a cruiser, meant to cruise.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Having experience with the Rebel 250 and VLX, I’m going to offer some thoughts on those two.

Take a very good look at how comfortable you find yourself during the MSF course. Partially I mean physical comfort (is the bike they give you, most likely a 250cc cruiser, too small to sit comfortably on?)
But even more importantly, psychologically assess your comfort level with how you handle the low speed maneauvering, and how you react when you give it some beans. Do you ever find yourself short on reaction time, or thinking about al the things you have to do when you are supposed to be doign them?

Unless your 60 mile commute is on interstate (in which case, don’t plan on doing it for a while even if you get a bike that can do it) a 250 cruiser is almost certainly the better bike to start on. It is considerably less intimidating and much easier to handle at low speeds.

The VLX is a noticible step up from a 250 in every way. Bigger, heavier, and more power. It is geared really tall, so I wouldn’t worry about goosing the gas (it is pretty tame), but everything happens faster on it than a 250. When you are learning it is nice to have a buffer space. On the 250 you have time to think things through as they are happening. Not so much with the 600.

My mom had a Rebel 250 for just shy of a year. She loved it. She never dropped it, and it was powerful enough for riding in traffic and trips out of town on the freeway with light traffic. She moved up to a VLX, and in her second ride dumped the bike and ended up underneath it on a paved median. She was pulling out of the gas station, hit some gravel and the bike started to slide, she target fixated on the median and hit it. She’s certain if she’d been on the 250 she would have had enough time to correct and drive away with nothing more than a raised heartbeat.

The VLX is a good bike, no question. On our family rides we’ve run into many people who loved their VLXs, many having ridden across the US and Canada on their “little” 600s. But spending a year on a 250 and then moving up to a VLX really does seem like the better idea (having watched someone do it). With the resale values of 250s, if you buy a used one, you’ll probably sell it for what you paid – My mom sold hers for $100 less than she paid for hers, and it was a 1983!

Now, if you decide you want a standard instead of a cruiser, the Blast is simply an excellent bike to go with, period.
—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

Yea, the F650 was a 650cc thumper. By all accounts it was a good bike. The new one is the same mill as the F800ST (the sport touring bmw). But it has be detuned a bit (mostly to differentiate it from the 800GS).

Trust me when I say it doesn’t need the extra ummph of the “bigger” 800s. It goes plenty quick.

The other thing is that BMW really tried to make that engine sound and feel like the boxer twin in the R1200 bikes. I don’t know how well they succeeded, but it doesn’t feel like any other twin I’ve sat on. Very little vibes, and very quiet. It doesn’t have any of the rattling sounds I’m used to from so many other motorcycles. As I said, the bikes feels “premium”.

If you want leg room, the F650GS/Versys/DL650 are better bet than the F800ST/VFR bikes. I actually found it disconcerting at first to have my feet so far below me. I’m not sure I like the seating position (purely personal preferance), I just find it odd.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

“Beaten into the ground” certainly is a strong statement.

Certainly fair to say that any bike used to learn on is going to have a rough life. In mountain biking we say mountain biking isn’t hard on bikes, learning to mountain bike is hard on bikes. And that certainly seems true of motorcycles as well.
Would a bigger bike fair any better? If so, why?

The 250s do have the advantage of being (for the most part) very simple and reliable machines. When stuff breaks, they aren’t nearly as hard to fix as some.

Please note that the bike in question here is more than 20 years old now. Any bike that has lasted 20 years is doing pretty well imo.
My mom’s 250 never seemed to last with an owner more than a year – and it was a 1983. Think of how many people got introduced to biking on that poor abused little bike. She did her share of abuse and now it is off in the hands of another new rider.

I’m with Shannon on checking both the choke (since it needs to be turned down as the bikes warms up) and the idle set screw. The idle speed has to be set when the engine is at full operating temperature. If it is set when the bike is cold, it’ll over rev the engine as the bike warms up.

And yes, gear or working bike? Gear. Yo can’t kill yourself with all your gear and no working bike. The reverse is not the case.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Matt]

“Also, I’ve noticed that anytime someone brings up the concept of needing/wanting to “upgrade” from their beginner bike, you act like the the mere mention of it is personally insulting to you.”

No, or well, not the intention at least.
What I find annoying is the line of thinking that says “you’ll grow bored with a bike unless it has more power”. I think there is a definite want for more power than a starter bike. But I don’t think most people actually out grow the power of a middleweight (in this case, 600cc-800cc since the definition always changes).

I definitely think people want change and thus move to a different bike. I think North American culture has a huge bias that says “Bigger is better” so when people change bikes and upgrade, bigger is the overriding direction. Most guys I’ve talked to who own a litre bike travel above the speed limit and accelerate hard, but never take the bike into performance realms beyond what a 600cc could do. Usually they say the like the torque because it lets them shift less, but really it is a nice toy, and they like having “The best”.

I think telling anyone who is getting into motorcycles that they’ll probably want to change bikes within the first few years is the right thing to do (since many people seem to think that their first bike will be their last, and that just isn’t the case for the majority). I think that telling them they’ll want to upgrade because they’ll get bored with the performance of a bike is wrong. It says “The amount you enjoy your bike is proportional to the displacement”. It reinforces false logic.

I’ve got no problem with recommending the SV as a less expensive entry into the motorcycle world that is, as you say, mechanically a very similar bike. Saving cash at the expense of the little things that go with being a Ducati owner is certainly good advice. Saying that the person will be bored with the Ducati because of the engine performance, not so much.

I was, as Budd points out, also defending the Ducati as a pretty darned good street bike that, while never having the performance crown in its category (or best value) has endeared itself to tens of thousands of people. And should not be dismissed because its defining characteristic is the undefinable “personality”.

—
“The two seconds between ‘Oh S**!’ and the crash isn’t a lot of practice time.”

[Author]

Posts