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MSF School: Waste of time, waste of money, both, or none of the above……Flamers flame on.
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September 23, 2008 at 6:15 am #12540smokeizfireParticipant
Yes, cost is the issue vs. my expectations in what I would leave there with. No, Im not a know it all, but I know what I know. Ur an asshole! Im a grown man and could give a rats ass about what the “majority” got out of their course! And yeah, you are sorry. I have a right to my opinion of what I feel is inadequate, even when none of the “other high school kiddys” don’t think it’s so cool. I’d rather be a bit premature, than very immature, asshole!
HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS
September 23, 2008 at 7:10 am #12542TheAbomb12Participantwow you’re such a tool.
September 23, 2008 at 12:46 pm #12548RupmiscParticipantZen-like Calm and Reasoned Analysis would be nice, but you’ll have to settle for my comments. I live in Massachusetts. Looking at various threads about MSF courses I have formed some hypotheses.
First, I suspect that BRCs in various places can be very different. I had never been on a bike. The riding portion of my class was two three hour sessions over two days. Leaving out rest breaks and lectures, I spent about 30 minutes max, per day, actually riding. Only 2 of us, out of 8, had never ridden. Others have described their course as having more instruction, more riding, and more practice.
So, maybe some are better than others. I was not unhappy with my course. I did arrange for an instructor to spend a couple of extra hours with me, (I paid per hour), so that I could learn what I wanted. And then I went and practiced. I didn’t learn to drive a car in two days, and it is probably unreasonable to expect the BCR to do the whole job. I certainly learned a lot, including enough to make me want to keep riding. Still, the course could have been much better where I took it.
Second, in Massachusetts, having the option to take your road test privately is worth the cost of the MSF course. No one put a gun to my head. The MSF course was a far more pleasant experience, and far more supportive. I consider it money well spent. And I do get 10% off on some of my insurance, which will defray the cost over time.
Had I grown up on dirt bikes, and been cost sensitive, I might have practiced, gotten my bike and license, and waited for an advanced course. But I am happy I took the course, even if it has flaws. Frankly, as a 54 year old responsible car driver, having to listen to over an hour of talk and rules about not drinking and riding was torture. But I figure the 17 year old class members (who all rode better than I did) might benefit from hearing it.
September 23, 2008 at 12:58 pm #12550Sangria7ParticipantThis thread gave me a LOL….
I agree with…you get what you put into it … no matter how mundane. Nothing wrong with going over basics. And yes, the insurance discount will certainly surpass the $250 cost over the lifetime of riding no?
When I was instructing in the Army, we always went back to basics no matter how “expert” we were, as complacency is the number 1 reason why people die, both on the road and the battlefield. Yes, sometimes, it was painful and boring to hear the same lectures, but its all about repetition.
Take it as an experience, and maybe suggest some things to the MSF instructors on how to improve thier course. They would probably appreciate new feedback. They are probably just as bored instructing the same things over and over and over…..
September 23, 2008 at 1:21 pm #12554RupmiscParticipantFirst, I had not meant to imply that the stuff that bored me was unnecessary. Second, the instructor was a nice guy and was clearly bored with some of this. Fortunately for him, most of this stuff was on video. He could read a book while we watched. . My point was that the course was more useful than not, and that nothing of this kind could be perfect for everyone.
It does seem, though, that some of the courses in other states have a more strenuous riding component than those in my state. California, for example, seems to expect more from its students.
September 23, 2008 at 1:34 pm #12555AndrewParticipantI had only ridden a bike once in my life before the class and I got a lot from it. As a 34 year old man I didn’t need the lecture on drink riding either but the 17 year olds did and some of the crash stats were interesting to think and talk about.
September 23, 2008 at 2:15 pm #12557dcJohnParticipantFirst, I’m sure that the quality of the instructor has a huge affect on things. Knowing how to ride and knowing how to teach are two different skills, and I’m sure there are plenty of MSF instructors out there who have great riding credentials but aren’t nearly as skilled at teaching the material. My course’s instructor (and second riding coach when out on the range) was terrific–made the points tangible with plenty of real-world riding stories and obviously had a sincere interest in making sure everyone improved their riding. He’d been teaching MSF courses for several years, and when someone wasn’t “getting it” he often had several other ways of getting across what was needed (he’d clearly seen it all and had figured out different ways to reach different people).
Second, the class is going to be driven by the beginners in the class. That’s understandable, since the course is to get basic riding proficiency down. If I wanted to coast through the class, I could have just settled for the thumbs up I got after running through the exercises. But I figured, “hey, it’s not my bike, and they don’t seem to freak out at drops in practice” so a couple times I pushed things like the box figure 8 a bit more aggressively than I would on my bike to really find the limits of traction and control. I never actually did drop the bike, skid out of control, or even stall, and I learned to trust bikes a lot more than I would have if I was being more cautious on my own ride. Also, the instructor was happy to talk about and coach more advanced stuff during breaks (when it wouldn’t confuse or send mixed messages to the complete beginners). I got a nice introduction to trail breaking that way.
Third, I’m sure it has to vary some by state. Here in Maryland, the riding/skill test was run by a separate state DMV tester who came in at the end of the class to administer and judge the Maryland motorcycle skills exam. The class doesn’t just teach to the exam–for example, we ran through lots of exercises that aren’t included on the MD exam (e.g. offset cones) –but on the second day there was more emphasis and practice on the exams that the state test included. I think there’s a generic set of riding skills units in every MSF course, but there’s designed flexibility on day 2 of riding to focus a bit more on whatever skills your state tests for.
My only really negative thing to say comes from the Rider’s Edge “branding” of the MSF course. There were some extra hours of class time that had nothing to do with riding knowledge or skills and everything to do with pushing the dealership and the Harley brand. If I’m going to have to deal with an extra hour or two of the marketing nonsense, I’d like to see the course cost less, not more, than the MSF equivalent. Plus, the Buell Blasts were a pain at slow speed and clearly were not a great first ride for the absolute beginners. Still, at least here in MD, the MSF courses can’t come close to keeping up with the demand, and I’m glad the RE courses exist as another convenient avenue for getting in a class.
September 23, 2008 at 2:59 pm #12561smokeizfireParticipantHE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS
September 23, 2008 at 3:29 pm #12562smokeizfireParticipantEspecially during the reading, video, and writing exam portion of the class. I don’t want the class to change because I know that the other students benefited more as a whole. They give you tools to practice. Basic tools. I just don’t think that it’s fair to say that I expected more for the dollar amount. Am I saying I didn’t learn anything. No! Am I saying that the “Course” is bad. No! What I’m saying for me as an individual, I didn’t get what I expected. Did I expect to leave the class doing wheelies….ummmmmm……no(no sarcasm this time around). I think I learned more in the class about riding on the road than the actual riding exercises. I agree that complacency is why people die. Believe me, if you perceive that I am complacent or over confident in riding a motorcycle, nothing could be further from the truth. I am doubly paranoid on a motorcycle, more than my already paranoid driving. I was definitely expecting more preparation for street driving. Maybe the drills I’ve learned did. I can’t really see how, yet.
HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS
September 23, 2008 at 3:32 pm #12563smokeizfireParticipant….took the course. But I agree. You can please all the people some of the time. You can pleas some of the people all the time. But you can’t please all of the people all of the time!
HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS
September 23, 2008 at 4:17 pm #12565smokeizfireParticipant“…Still, the course could have been much better where I took it….” That is the main point, for me that is(not the whole world because I don’t speak for them) Unfortunately, you have individuals defending the “course” as if every school and instructor teaches the same way. You have individuals defending the course as if everyone learns the same way. And you have people defending the course as if I said it should be done away with. Obviously, you felt you had missed something so you paid extra to get what you needed. Right? As far as your comment on money well spent. I think that is a matter of opinion. Would I recommend it to beginners with 0 riding experience. Absolutely. Would I recommend it for someone such as myself(not too many of those guys around…Thank God LOL)? The jury is still out until I complete the course. I just hope I will eat my words come Sunday evening. Like what some of the more intelligent people (including yourself) said, you get what you put in. For me, I just was expecting to get something else out of the course that I didn’t receive, yet.
HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS
September 23, 2008 at 4:48 pm #12568WeaponZeroParticipantI had been riding for about 3 months, commuting everyday to and from work on my bike, before i took the MSF BRC. And I learned a LOT from it. Especially on the 2nd day of riding when they had me doing figure 8s, swerves, and reacting to emergencies.
September 23, 2008 at 6:31 pm #12571RabParticipantYou don’t even know me, so branding me an ******* based on a couple of lines of truth that you don’t want to hear is irrational.
You claim to be a “grown man”, but you’re acting like a spoilt child with your sad little name calling rant. If you are indeed a “grown man”, you’re not setting much of an example here for “the high school kiddies” are you? I know, you “don’t give a rat’s …”.
Many people have commented that one of the reasons they enjoy this board, apart from the good advice that they (hopefully) receive, is that the discourse is civil, unlike many other boards. Don’t spoil it for the many because you’re having a bad day (or a bad life…).
September 23, 2008 at 8:11 pm #12580MunchParticipantI to took the Riders Edge version of the MSF. It is an awesome alternative to the basic MSF sponsored by the community colleges here in NC. The average waiting list here is 6-8 months. I got in the RE version in 3 weeks. We to got to do the tour of the Harley Dealership which at first I was kind of irritated at but didn’t mind a whole lot…. then I sat back during the 15 min they give you to shop at the discounted rate and watched. It gave everyone in our class who did not already have one (because they were brand spanking new riders) chance to buy helmets, gloves, boots etc. under the guidance of the instructors. I thought it was very very professional of them to afford the class that . Especially after the lady in our class went straight for a boot that was close to be a riding boot but not a good option. They really put the effort into making each part of the class a learning experience… even in the Tour.
In NC the instructors do the final review/test. Which is great as our DMV personnel here are very few and far between. They already limit their riding tests to 3 days a week…now convince the same government instructor to work the week end also. For some you may as well ask them to give up one of their many holiday days.
Mine was a 4 day course… 2 textbook and videos and 2 full days of riding. Through out all 4 days we were givin’ many a story from the instructors experiences. Of course being that they were both as good ol boy-ish as I am…..there were definitely many a story. Gives you things to think about, un-intentional pearls of wisdom to pick up on should you be listening. Heck even some humor added in.
Now DCJohn is only 4 hours away from my location…. depending on Richmond and Alexandria traffic. You can already see some of the differences.Yesterday is a memory, tomorrow is a prediction, but today…… is a Bi**h
September 23, 2008 at 9:49 pm #12584smokeizfireParticipantWhat do you know you piece of sh*t about my life. You attacked me with your opinion of what I posted without reading the details. Therefore, your judgments were made on half of the information. If you took the time to read(with understanding)the entire post, you wouldn’t have posted that nonsense. How helpful was your post to anyone who would read it. Telling me that I’m bitching about the price, that I’m a “know it all”, that I’m dissing the course before I finish it.
It is obvious that you know how to read. Understanding what you read remains to be seen. I stated what I, me…not the whole world, got out of MSF so far……let me type it so you can understand……sooooooo faaaaaaar. I stated, “I hope next week will be more fulfilling.”
Tell me how in your twisted perception did I dis the MSF course in any of my post. Stupid @ssholes like you I’ll dis as fast you turn up! Twisting your @sshole opinion into truth, especially when you are making judgments about someone who is a total stranger is irrational, nor is it civil. Branding me a know it all? You don’t know anything about me! Don’t ever expect me to be civil when you are attacking me you cunt! You don’t spoil the discourse by posting false attacks! Oh yeah, a big F@%k Y@# to your last statement about my life. I am teaching the H.S. kids something….how to deal with an ignorant bastard like you!
(Gloves back on)HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS
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