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MattParticipant
SM stands for Super Moto. That is, a dual sport or dirt bike with sport bike wheels and brakes. Because they run road tires, their off road capabilities are limited. The S is the standard street legal one (I believe) with standard dual sport tires.
The Yamaha WR-250 is also an option. The reviews for it are that it handles highways just fine, it very high tech, yet resilient, and plenty of fun. It also comes in both dual sport and Super Moto configurations.
MattParticipantWashington and Oregon resource for motorcycle touring (well, everywhere really)
If you are going to do the trip, I’d say plan to take roads that do not require speeds above 60mph (don’t plan for interstates). The reason is two fold: On an interstate you experience very little of the world around you, and you’ll be more stressed dealing with the antics of drivers around you.
Rab’s comment for allowing frequent stops is a damned good idea.
I always think of riding a motorcycle as driving a car, but it isn’t. It is physically and (more significantly) mentally exhausting in ways cars simply are not. I’ve found a 200mile day on back country roads is a very very long day on a motorcycle. I expect that it’ll get easier as time goes on, but a 200 mile day trip pushes me right to the edge (I can of drive 600miles in a day without issue).MattParticipantWhen you read people’s opinions on which bike to start out with, one thing you should look at is: what was the experience of the person making the recommendation?
If “Joe” started out on a Ninja 250 and progressed up to a GXR 600, he’s a good person to listen to when discussing starting on a 250. If he says he got bored really quickly and though he should have gone with a 650 first, it is a pretty useful piece of information.
If he says he had a lot of fun on his 250 and didn’t regret it, that too is equally useful.I’ve had a few people question my choice of starting on a 250. The “you’ll be bored with it” comment comes up pretty often, and really, it is their only argument against the little ninja. Of the people who think I’ll be bored, none of them have ever ridden a Ninja 250 on the open road. Not have only ridden it for a short while, but never ridden one at all outside of a parking lot.
If all I knew of my bike was how it accelerated in a parking lot, and I knew how the BMW F800 (or even my old Honda VF500F) accelerated in a parking lot, then yes, I too might think the ninjette wasn’t going to be fun for long.
But the fun of the 250 isn’t in the point-and-shoot. I don’t slow down hard for corners then rocket out of them. The fun with the ninja 250 is just how smooth and easy it is to fling around corners. Move my shoulder off centre of the bike, apply some pressure, and hold that throttle. I’ve ridden several hundred miles on bigger bikes. I know that those bigger bikes would not have been as forgiving for the mistakes I’ve made. And I’ve had a ton of fun in the process.
Will I move up to a bigger bike? Yup, I’m not a 250-for-life guy. But I’m not waiting for that next bike, I’m enjoying this one too much.Of the riders in my office who’ve expressed opinions on the 250:
-One rides a 1988ish Ninja 900. It’ll lift the front wheel without a thought, at any speed, in most any gear. The owner of it thinks my bike is the bees-knees.
-One is a true “Mountain of a man”, who rides a Harley Electraglide, and loves the little ninja having ridden many bikes like it 20 years ago.
-One calls it a “tiny piss-pot” because it doesn’t have a one-litre V-twin (and if it doesn’t have that, it isn’t a real bike).The Ninja 250 exemplifies “you get out of it what you put in to it”. If you have no intention of improving your riding and just want to experience the rush of acceleration, then no, it isn’t the bike for you. If you enjoy progressing, leaning that little bit harder each time you take that corner, you’ll never run out of fun on the ninja 250.
Oh, and anyone who says you won’t fit on one, hasn’t sat on one. I’m your size (6′ 185 pounds) I find it very comfortable. The seat height is low, but the pegs aren’t high, so you aren’t as compact as on a “bigger” sport bike.
One last point:
Have you ever noticed that almost all the best MotoGP riders moved up from the 250cc class? Most formula 1 drivers started racing (and often keep in shape in the off season) by racing go-karts… There are good lessons in there.June 5, 2008 at 3:46 pm in reply to: Would a CF Moto V3 (250cc) Sport be a better commuter/touring bike than a Ninja 250? #7054MattParticipantQuick clarification on scooters and back brakes: They do have them. The back brake is controlled by your left hand lever (normally your clutch level on a motorcycle).
From the few scooter riders I’ve spoken to, it takes virtually no effort to mentally swtich between braking on a scooter and a motorcycle. The overall dynamics are the same, and when you brake you normally pull in the clutch lever anyways.
And then there is the fact that Bicycles use a similar setup, but (usually) with the right lever activating rear brake and left lever activating front brake).
MattParticipantPrice in Canada is $8900(ish).
That puts it about a grand and a half more than a Versys (also on my “To Try” list) and about a grand less than the Ducati Monster 695.
It is less than most 600cc Supersports.June 5, 2008 at 12:25 pm in reply to: Would a CF Moto V3 (250cc) Sport be a better commuter/touring bike than a Ninja 250? #7047MattParticipantI presume this is scoot you are refering to:
http://www.cfmoto.cn/product/moto/v3-3.aspfirstly, it is a scooter, not a motorcycle. What is the difference? This one has a CVT (automatic) transmission. There is more to it than that, but as a starter bike that is really all you should care about.
What this means is that when you move up to a ZZR 600 (or whatever your next bike is) you won’t have trained your brain and body to shift gears properly. Lots of people learn on scooters, but they rarely jump from a scooter to a sport bike. It is usually to something more relaxed…
Comments specific to this scoot:
It has a listed top speed of 100km/h (60 mph). That is much slower than any of the bikes you listed. My ZZR-250 (engine of a ninja 250) happily plays at speeds above 130km/h. Personally, I would not take any bike that can’t do 115km/h on a freeway or interstate.So, will it be a better tourer than the Ninja 250? Nope.
Does it get better fuel economy? Yes, but just barely. The difference in cost between running that scoot and a ninja 250 would be dollars a month.There appears to be a number of reviews/comments about the scoot on the net. I haven’t had a chance to read any of them, so I really don’t know what is being said about it. But I am very skeptical about bikes made in China. China’s motorcycle industry is not even close to the quality of Korea, let alone any of the big bike companies.
You may spend more time fixing that scoot than riding it.
Lastly, do NOT get a ZZR-600 as a starting bike. I know it is not as hardcore as a current ZX-6R, but it is still a very hardcore bike. The ZZR-600 is simply last gen’s ZX-6 with a more comfortable seat adn higher bars. Seriously, it is not a friendly bike to start out on. It has every vice and danger of any other 600cc super-sport.
Too boot, it is not a comfortable bike. I’m 6′ and it has my knees bent pretty hard. My ZZR-250 is a much much more comfortable bike.Ninja 250, Ninja 500, GS500 – all are good choices.
The CF Moto V3… can’t do freeways, won’t teach you clutch control and shifting, and you roll your dice for quality.
The ZZR-600, make it your second bike.MattParticipantThe bonnie is a big bike. And she has a lot of both torque and horsepower. Triumph does not make a beginner friendly bike.
If you like the idea of taking a bike on dirt roads and trails, start off on a proper Dual Sport. They are much friendlier bikes in every way.
Dirt riding makes you a better rider on the road, no question about it. But you really want to be doing it with a bike meant for it (it WILL drop and hit the ground often). You should also do it with people who know how. Don’t just go out and play on your own the first few times. You’ll progress much faster, and have a lot more fun riding with people who already know how to ride on dirt.
MattParticipantDave, I’m not sure if you are disagreeing with me, or the people above me…
I’m with you in saying that from a riding perspective it isn’t any worse than any of the other 650 twins (SV650).
It does make a healthy bit more peak torque than the GS500 (59Nm vs 29Nm).
But it makes less power and torque than the SV650S (SV650 72hp 65Nm, Ducatti 620 is 63hp, 59Nm).http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/downloads/dynocharts/dynocharts-Ducati-2005-Ducati-Monster-620Dark.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GS500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_SV650SSo yes, if you are prepared to learn on a SV650, powerwise the Ducati won’t be any more difficult.
Personally, I’m agaisnt calling the 650s proper beginner bikes, I’m a firm believer in learning small and moving up. There are very good reasons teh MSF doesn’t use 650s in their classes. But I’m also comfortable in saying that after a season of riding a 250 (or less if you ride regularily) the 650s won’t be too much of a jump.
My real issue with the Duck is the cost. Total cost of ownership is much higher on a Ducati than a less exotic bike. And dropping a Duck will be comparatively expensive.
Anyways, my 2 cents have been said (twice now… so is that 4 cents?)
MattParticipantA local scooter dealer brought a bunch of electric scooters to the auto show. etup right across from the Smart car stand (and you though the smart was good on gas).
Right now electric scooters/motorcycles are not licenseable on Ontario roads. I forget how they got around the issue, but they get classified as bicycles or something here.
Anyways, even the best one on sale had a top speed below 60kph and a range of less than 40 kilometers on a chrage.
The technology simply is not there yet.
I’m really not sure a review of them is appropriate on this site (yet), since they don’t yet compete with motorcycles as a practical consumer product.
Even still the only ones I saw don’t compete with motorcycles at all, but with 50cc scooters (which Ben has stated several times he doesn’t review because they are a very different demographic from motorcycles).MattParticipantPDI charges suck. PDI is a dealer inspection / assembly of the bike.
PDIs are above and beyond the MSRP, and range anywhere from $300 to $1000+ depending on the bike and the shop. PDIs are an area you can normally haggle with a dealership over.
MattParticipantReviews for the monster 620 say that it is no worse a beginner bike than the SV650 or Ninja 650.
(The 695 is more powerful, and the 696 has a whole host of handling and power upgrades that work great for experienced riders, but work against learning without stress).It makes less power than most 600cc street bikes (Honda 599, SV 650, etc) and handles fairly well without being uber twitchy.
Is it an ideal starter? No.
Despite making similar power to other quasi-starter bikes, it makes (a lot?) more than 250s or 500s.From a purely practical point of view, the monster is a very expensive bike, even used. Ducatis are notorious for requiring a great deal fo mechanical attention (“Ducati, making mechanics out of riders since 1941”), and there is simply nothing inexepensive on or about any Ducati. Replacement parts and labour will not be cheap.
The Monster was designed as an intro to Ducati, not as an intro to motorcycles (despite what the salesmen will tell you). In many respects it is like a BMW 3 series. Can you learn to drive on a 3? Yes. Should you? No. The vehciles are driving machines, they expect you to already have all the muscle-memory and skills required.
If you really want a Duck (and I can’t say I blame you, I love the Monster 620 Dark) then buy a used Ninja 250. Ride it for one year to develop proper counter steering and weight/boy positioning skills. Once you are comfortable flipping that bike about, sell it off for what you paid for it and buy your dream Monster. Any money lost on the sale of the Ninja will be more than made up for by the depreciation of the Ducati. And the Duck will be doubly special when you are used to the acceleration of a 250.
Ben, I know you’ve already got a list of bikes to add, but you might want to consider reviewing some of these bikes that are being advertised as beginner friendly bikes. Show why they aren’t as good as others, and what better alternatives might be…
MattParticipantIf your helmet is DOT and snell approved, it’ll be plenty good enough for road riding. What you will need with it is a set of motocross style goggles.
Will the peak catch a lot of air? Probably. But Arai and a few other companies make “adventure” full faced helmets with peaks.
Worst case scenario is that your head gets really buffetted aroudn at high speed and you buy a new helmet, but no need to spend the money until you know for sure.
MattParticipantYou’d think they’d have at least tried writting a “review” of the product (perhapse plagerising webBikeWorl’ds review), but to just throw up the press release junk?
Sorry Cameleon Oiler, but this just sealed the deal – I’ll keep lubing my chain myself (wait, that sounds dirty…)
MattParticipantI’ve seen that list many times before, except of course #6
You should include your bit about standing on the pegs in the numbered bullets. I’ve never seen it mentioned before, but it sounds like pretty good advice.
MattParticipantGreat review, thanks!
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