[eon]

I think having the view that riding motorcycles is dangerous is beneficial, if you keep it in perspective. Without knowing all the details it certainly sounds like the two friends you lost died due to their own actions and a lack of respect for what they were doing. Unfortunately it was their family who really paid the price.

Before I started riding I gave serious thought to what I was doing. I have one brother who broke a leg when he went over the hood of a car after it pulled out in front of him, another was rear ended while waiting to turn and has had a bad knee for decades because of it, and lastly another one who almost died in a head on collision. He was very lucky to escape with a shattered ankle, 6 months in hospital and several surgeries (and hospital infections!). He now has one leg shorter than the other. After all these painful episodes you would think they gave up riding but not a bit of it. Two of them have been riding for over 30 years. The one in the head on collision could not get back on a bike quickly enough. So there must be something to it that keeps people doing it after such painful episodes.

My personal belief is that the dangers are exaggerated as there is no shortage of idiots who will get their15 minutes of fame on YouTube. If you approach riding as a serious endeavor, take training, wear appropriate gear and ride within your limits, there is no reason to expect you are going to die. There are plenty of people out there who put thousands of accident free miles on their bikes but they don’t make the headlines.

Since taking up riding 18 months ago it has become an obsession for me. When not spending too much time on this damn forum I am out exploring the back roads of WA, making great friends along the way and generally living life and having a blast.

I would recommend signing up the the MSF basic class and see how you feel on a bike. Only you can decide if the risks out weigh the benefits. There is no right or wrong answer to that question. Good luck.

[eon]

Since you have experience with a lawnmower you will feel right at home on a Harley

The path to starting out is relatively simple. Get yourself on the basic MSF class and then take it from there. I would also strongly recommend getting a copy of Proficient Motorcycling to learn how to survive on the streets. You get years of experience crammed into one book that will help you survive.

When planning on getting your first bike remember to budget for protective clothing. It may seem expensive but it’s a lot cheaper and less painful than a trip to the hospital.

Good luck with everything.

[eon]

This actually reminds me I nearly got creamed last week downtown as I shuffled from light to light. Between the two lights you cross over a 3 lane one way street and then there is room for 3 or maybe 4 cars before the next light. I pull away from the first light, getting close to the 2nd one when it turns yellow. I look behind me and the nearest car is waaaay behind, barely moved off from the first light. I decide to brake as I hate gunning it through yellows, especially downtown as pedestrians just walk out in front of you.

My mistake was then not looking behind me. I’m braking fairly hard so I’m concentrating on stopping at the line so I don’t brake harder than I need to. Once stopped I look behind to see the car nosedive under heavy braking and it comes to a stop inches behind me. God knows what they were thinking as no way could they even have made the yellow. I almost got off the bike to have a friendly chat with the woman but decided against it. I did turn and glare though

Gotta be more careful out there!

[eon]

Man, glad you escaped unscathed and are here to post about it. Major kudos for doing all the right things. I *try* to be as observant at every light but I can’t say I manage it all the time. It’s all too easy to get complacent and think about work or whatever is going on in your life. I know that intersection well and go through it all the time (will be there tomorrow night in fact). I probably do better at intersections like that one where you can feel exposed than my normal downtown haunts where you shuffle from light to light. Gets me into bad habits though.

Thanks for posting, keeps us on our toes.

[eon]

Well this guy was on a V-Strom and I have read they have extra bright lights. The fact he was behind me for 10 hours didn’t much help but it was certainly a very very bright light that I could still see if I shut my eyes.

I’m not sure what you mean by “properly adjusted full beam”. Aren’t full beams by definition shining directly out in all directions?

[eon]

I’m not a fan of having high beams on. Yes, it certainly gets you seen but at the expense of blinding other road users. Was on a group ride yesterday and the guy behind me had his high beam on all day. Was pissing me off as every time I glance in the mirror to check he was still there I get dazzled, leaving me with retina burn as I looked forward again. So yes, it will get you noticed but it may cause aggression towards you.

And be aware any oncoming drivers are not going to see any signals you make.

[eon]

In the instant before a crash if I could choose to have hard parts on the back of my glove I would do so. I just don’t think it’s the most important feature on a glove, especially if you are on a budget and have to pick and choose between features. I am much more concerned about the overall quality of the glove. I have not heard stories about hands getting crushed but have heard stories about gloves shredding (and seen the pictures), so that’s why I’ve avoided the cheaper gloves. A high end sports glove (like those Held gloves pictured by eternal) are going to have all the bells and whistles but probably have a price to match.

One of my other pair of gloves, RevIts Airvolution, is described as a summer sports glove.

The cut is much tighter than the Held and my thumb is severely restricted in its movement. I imagine this would help prevent injuries in a crash but it puts a strain on my thumb as I try to operate the controls and switches. If I’m going to be in the saddle for more than a few hours this can be important. Just saying not all gloves have the same goals.

[eon]

Never thought of it that way before but it sounds about right, though I would replace “abrasion” with “impact” in most of what you said. I think hard parts (with padding) do a great job of spreading the initial impact across a wider area. Areas like your knees, elbows and shoulders are going to hit hard with a lot of weight behind them. Just can’t see that scenario with the back of your hand (unless your bike falls on you). More important for gloves is abrasion resistance. I can easily see a situation where your hands are palm down sliding down the road. In that case you want gloves that are not going to come apart at the seams after 2 seconds.

Working with computers for a living my hands are important to me so my Steve Held gloves were actually part of my initial outfit. At around $170 they might have been the most expensive single item I bought. I shudder at the thought of wearing $25 gloves. I now have two other pairs of gloves that do have hard knuckle protection and while they help my fantasies of punching the cager who cuts me off, I don’t think they offer much more in the way of crash protection.

[eon]

I agree with everything WZ says (part from the part about gloves needing knuckle protection). Buy what you can afford and upgrade as you go along. But don’t spend all your money on the bike and leave nothing for gear.

About those gloves, my Steve Held gloves are considered to be in the high end bracket but do not have knuckle protection, or at least hard protection. Plenty of touring gloves do not have the hard parts on the back. Does this sacrifice protection for comfort? I don’t think so, or at least not significantly.

[eon]

From head on a motorbike has a pretty small profile. If that bike is heading directly towards you it is going to get bigger only slowly, which makes it difficult for our brains to pick it out of the cluttered background behind it. Studies have shown that our eyes are good at picking out movement. So if that bike was to move relative to the background behind it, our eyes pick it up in an instant. So weaving slightly in your lane moves you across the car drivers horizontal (or lateral) field of view and makes you immediately more visible to them. The same thing happens if you are not moving, the car driver does not see you and starts to pull out. At that point you are moving relative to the background and suddenly they see you and hit the brakes. This is why you should never assume even if the car driver is looking straight at you that they actually see you. There is a well worn excuse after an accident of “Sorry mate I didn’t see you” (SMIDSY for short). Sometimes they are telling the truth.

So if you can, a gently weave AWAY from the car increases your chances of being seen. If you move towards them you are getting closer to a 90′ angle of attack which would make you less visible. Plus moving away also gives you more room if you need to take avoiding action.

[eon]

Some (very) unscientific tests have shown that motorists are as blind to hi-viz riders as to non hi-viz but are remarkably good at spotting you if you look like a cop. Something to do with threat detection. In other words, they do see you but dismiss you as not relevant to them. Important to realize this is not people being dumb asses but it’s just the way our brains are wired.

Other unscientific tests have shown that deliberately looking like a cop will result in some unfriendly attention from the real deal. Try putting some blue lights on the front of your bike and see how you get on (even when it is legal).

Having said all that I tend towards the h-viz end of the spectrum and solid colored helmets. My 2nd helmet has a fancy paint scheme and I regret not getting the solid white one (it was $60 more for solid white!) after following a group of riders in low light conditions. The guy with the white helmet stood out while the others disappeared into the background.

Google SMIDSY for some other light reading. There is another theory that some horizontal movement greatly enhances the chances the other person will see you (I’m thinking someone sitting at a junction you are approaching looking right at you). It’s something I practice all the time whenever I see someone is waiting to cross over my lane.

I do all I can to be visible but you have to remember it is just your first line of defense. I would say it is more important to ride defensively and there are all kinds of strategies for that (a few of which have been mentioned here already). Grab yourself a copy of Proficient Motorcycling if you have not already. That is a great book for identifying the dangers you will face and how to recognize and avoid them before it becomes painful.

[eon]

LOL…no worries. I could tell you were going to defend your corner vigerously. Just wanted to make sure I had not upset you with something I said. I tend to do that on occasion on other forums by mistake. Don’t want to do that here.

[eon]

Don’t mean to turn this into a pissing contest as to what type of riding style is ‘better’. Hopefully we can discuss this without it getting too heated.

I agree with you that more riders equals more visibility but for me that is offset by worrying about the guy behind me. Someone 1 second to my side is not enough room for me to very comfortable, especially if I don’t know what level their riding ability is. Would you like that woman in the hat 1 second behind you on the road? It would make me nervous.

Aside from safety it reduces my fun as even in the roads at the end of the video the group is riding in staggered formation. I would drop off a little and then catch them easily (and I am not a fast rider) as I used all of the lane in the corners. If I have to go round a corner as if following a rail then I am not having any fun. This problem is exaggerated by putting the slowest riders at the front (MSF recommend advice I believe) which means everyone goes at the speed of the slowest rider. It’s just not a style for me and my rides with this group will be less frequent during the summer months as the group size swells.

[eon]

Thanks for the info on the IBA. I have to confess I don’t know a whole lot about it, just that some friends have done the 24 hour / 1000 mile thing. They were the ones talking about riding while tired and foggy. I also read reports on perhaps the initial one back in the day? Somewhere in NZ I think. Or maybe it was just the first one in NZ. They were talking about riding unfamiliar mountainous roads at night in bad weather while feeling this numbness (in the brain, not the butt!). While there were no deaths it seemed like playing Russian Roulette to me. I had no idea people were doing 10k miles in 11 days. That’s insane.

I heartily agree with preparation and experience making distance riding easier, whether you are doing 1000 or 500 miles a day. I’ve only done about 400 so far so I have a ways to go but I got all kinds of weather that day, from 90’+ temps to freezing rain in the mountains. Thankfully I had the proper gear and I enjoyed both extremes.

As far as the liability with training goes, I do not feel qualified to be giving advice to anyone so I’m not worried on a personal level, but I will mention your concerns to those who organized this in case there is another one.

[eon]

I can see if money changes hands it would need State approval but it’s hard to legislate against giving/taking advice from a friend. But I agree I would not want to be on video giving advice to someone who then falls over and gets hurt. Damn lawyers!

But group riding can be fun. Some of my best rides have been group rides. There is a local motorcycle website here that organizes occasional rides and they have been a blast. Got to have lunch and ride with David Hough so you can imagine safety is paramount. You gotta have full gear (including boots and pants) and you essentially ride individually. The guy in front will wait for you at an intersection so you know which way to go and you wait for the guy behind you. Not exactly rocket science.

Since we are talking about safe riding, I’ve been meaning ask you about Iron Butt rides. I am surprised to see you promote them as they seem inherently unsafe to me. The whole idea of setting yourself an artificial deadline that forces you to ride at night while fatigued on unfamiliar roads in all kinds of weather just so you can get a ‘certificate’ and join an ‘exclusive’ club seems bizarre to me. Everyone I know who has done it talks about riding through a mental fog. Normally you would pull over and rest but instead you press on as that is the ‘challenge’.

Maybe I am missing something but it just seems unsafe to me and anything but fun.

[Author]

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