- This topic has 28 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 9 months ago by Clay Dowling.
I Hate Stealerships
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June 11, 2009 at 11:49 pm #19586SafetyFirstParticipant
If I was buying a new bike, I’d let them do their job. If they are in sales at a motorcycle dealer, chances are they are probably passionate about bikes. More passionate about their job than the person at the paint store selling you on paint. So, let them do their job. No, I’m not into high pressure. But use their product knowledge and force them to apply it to your riding.
Salespeople love to rattle off numbers about the engine, blah blah blah, 1/4 mile, blah blah. But what you can do to make them find their job more interesting, is ask them questions. “So, it does the 1/4 mile in blah blah blah, how is it riding around town?” Or better yet, “I heard the Ninja 650 has a more linear throttle response. Is that more of less a benefit for me as a newer rider moving up in size? Would I be doing a disservice getting used to throttle being linear if I move to a bigger sports bike (make sure to mention a model from a line they sell) where it isn’t as linear, and scare myself when I hit a bump and blast it into the top end of the power band?” Questions like that will not only help you, but make them think.
June 12, 2009 at 12:18 am #19588ranetteParticipantOf course a salesman needs to make the call as to whether or not you’re lying. If you walk into a place and say I’m ready to plunk down $8500 for x, y or z bike and the salesperson says you have a deal and then you tell him sorry I was lying, the salesperson just wasted his time, and when it comes to making a living we are all on the clock. If you are dealing with someone who is lying to you, you could be neglecting someone who is looking to work with you in good faith. So the guy could have given him some number, even you said probably wouldn’t be his best number. These days you can get a decent idea of what any bike should cost by doing a little research. Like it or not in any transaction where price is negotiable-from a motorcycle sale to a leveraged buyout-the final price can only be hammered out when both parties are ready to make a deal. If you need a salesperson to give you a number you can usually get a rough number by telling him or her that you’re not ready to buy but just need a basic price range, most will give it to you; first rule of sales, make a friend. Actually if anyone here has seen Glengary Glen Ross, a great, great film, they know the real first rule of sales is ABC, Always Be Closing. However if you know that there is no way for a sale to close at that moment, you make a friend, that’s the best way to get their business when they are ready.
As for prejudging a potential customer by what he or she is wearing or the vehicle they drive up in, it is wrong and usually counterproductive for just the reasons you mention. However, accurately trying to assess whether that potential customer is being truthful with you is an important aspect of being a successful businessperson.
Absolutely agree with you about good sales people taking care of the person and not forgetting about the customer after the check has cleared. For example, a good sales person will act as his customer’s advocate in dealing with the service department or even a manufacturer when it comes to things like borderline calls on whether something is or is not covered by warranty. Most who have been around for a while realize it’s much easier to make a living from returning customers and referrals, and will go the extra mile to make sure you come back. Obviously this is where the customer’s ability to assess comes into play, if you feel you are being viewed as nothing but a wallet with legs just move on. The few $$$ you might save, and I stress the word MIGHT, will quickly be forgotten as your bike sits in the shop and your rep asks you “what’s your name again? what did you buy? when do you think you’ll be looking for a new bike? Sorry, can’t help you, you’ll have to speak with service.”
To shift gears from the above paragraphs, for some reason whenever I walk into a car dealership I am immediately approached by a salesperson. The bike shops I’ve been in seem to give me more space, though when I’ve asked for help I’ve always gotten it. I realize this isn’t a cultural difference between motorcycle and automobile dealerships just a peculiarity I’ve noticed in my limited visits to motorcycle dealerships.
June 12, 2009 at 12:39 am #19589ranetteParticipantElias I agree with your statement in a previous post, this should probably end as it will probably denigrate into a flame war, something that has been refreshingly absent from this site. However, I am still trying to get at what you are saying, in your original post you state,
“Hey I have a question for you. I have a big wad of cash (lying)”
and above you write,
“I don’t like wasting people’s time anymore than the person who’s time I would be wasting.”
I’ve been in sales related professions for the better part of the past 25 years-I currently own a country inn with my wife and part of our job is to sell rooms-and I can honestly say that any time I have lied to a prospective customer I have wasted their time and any time a potential customer has lied to me they have wasted my time. You certainly have a right to lie to a salesperson, I’ll get off my high horse in that regard, but then to state that you don’t like to waste their time simply makes no sense at all.
As a final comment I’d say that SafetyFirst probably made the most sense of anybody in this thread when he spoke about engaging the salesperson with your common interests, asking intelligent questions to let him or her know that you know what you’re talking about. Any customer who knows about linear throttle response also knows that MSRP ain’t the best he can do, a good salesperson should recognize this and it should eliminate some of the BS.
June 12, 2009 at 2:49 am #19590EliasParticipant“Any customer who knows about linear throttle response also knows that MSRP ain’t the best he can do, a good salesperson should recognize this and it should eliminate some of the BS.”
Most salesmen that I have dealt with try to sell for the highest price possible. It is only when they are faced with a customer walking away, when they could have lowered the price and made a sale, that they agree to lower the price. I say “most salesmen” because this is not true with all, but it is this methodology that I usually use to communicate to the sales person the extent to which I am serious about getting a good deal or no deal at all. I do my research, I determine a best price, and I’ll fight for it because I know it is a price they will take (based on my research). I do not try to rip them off or present unreasonable pricing options, I simply try to point out that it is possible to sell me item X for price Y. If they disagree I walk away…and they usually come to their senses. I have walked out of several places after having respectable offers denied, but EVERY SINGLE one has chased after me and accepted my offer. I have never walked away empty handed, ever. So yes, a good salesperson SHOULD recognize a knowledgeable and patient buyer such as myself, but in my experience, they don’t usually, and so I result to the methods that they do understand.
As for the Socratic argument on me contradicting myself- The conversation I held with the salesman at Kelly’s lasted under 1 minute, maybe an entire minute, I mean, how long did it take you to read the dialogue? My experiment on this trip was to find out if this dealer (who I wouldn’t otherwise consider) was in the realm of possibility by association to a low price. I went in with an intent to find out whether they would bite or not. He didn’t and so I walked. If I wanted to waste his time, I would have sat there and politely argued my case, probably thrown out there how I have seen other dealerships selling 2009 650R’s for $900 off MSRP (which would NOT be a lie). If I didn’t care about wasting time, I would TRY. But I don’t handle dealerships like that. I go in, I skip the sales pitches and driveway pipe-dreams, I give them a price point, and they either accept it or deny it. I go in on a mission to purchase for a specific price. If we’re considering that I was wasting this guys time in that one-minute exchange, then I would argue that any time you or I make a request for anything, and it is denied, then the entire exchange of words was a waste of time. I have to ask the guy if he’ll sell me the bike for under MSRP to find out if he will sell it to me for under MSRP!
June 12, 2009 at 3:21 am #19593ranetteParticipant“Most salesmen that I have dealt with try to sell for the highest price possible”
Actually ALL salesmen want to sell for the highest possible price(within the limits of the law and their management). There is nothing wrong with that, it’s their job, it’s how they make their living. They make a commission, they put food in their kid’s mouths, they buy nice things for their spouses, based on the amount of profit they bring in. You can look at it as your job, keeping as much of your money as possible, to pay the lowest possible price; any salesperson worth his seat knows that and respects that. For some reason you do not have a problem with the consumer trying to do the best for him or herself while you seem to really resent a salesperson for trying to do the same for himself.
Actually, Elwood’s says it far better than I am able to, I’d say it pretty much says it all, great post. You know what? I’d buy a used car, or a new washer/dryer, from that man.
I’ll say that I’m finished with this thread for the simple reason that you seem to be a good guy but our views on this are at polar opposites and if I were to honestly give my opinion on your most recent post I’d end up saying things I regret. Feel free to comment on this post, but next time you see me it will be in another thread.
Randy
June 12, 2009 at 3:35 am #19598EliasParticipantRandy, you don’t have to respond to my posts, but responding IS the point of a discussion. As far as I can tell, we are having a perfectly mature argument. I’m sitting on my couch, drinking a brew, catching up on BBM. I’m not screaming at my laptop or calling you or anyone names. I can’t control how you feel, but I’m not trying to upset you, nor anyone else here. This is the beauty of forums, different people with different views collaborating and discussing approaches to situations that might not otherwise occur to an individual. But, I respect you, and Elwood, and I am not trying to directly rip you or any salesman off. You make it sound like I’m deliberately starving their children because I’m being so super selfish about getting a good deal. lol, alright. Agree to disagree, see you on a different thread…in good spirits I hope.
June 12, 2009 at 12:30 pm #19617eternal05Participant1) Elwood, you’re absolutely right…except that, like several people have pointed out, you live in the parallel universe where everybody is as decent as you. Believe me, I may be young, but I spent six years in three completely different sales positions and I can say unequivocally that 90% of my co-workers were lying, deceitful, and completely uninterested in the true satisfaction of their customer’s needs. During that time I probably had upwards of 150 co-workers in four different locations. My brother is a real estate broker, and he has more horror stories than you’d want to sit through. (After all, that’s half the reason we’re looking at a housing crisis…the other half is people who don’t have a shred of fiscal responsibility.)
Every time I go to Best Buy, Guitar Center, Staples, almost any car dealership, any real estate agency, interact with any contractor, and on and on and on, I get lied to. I don’t get somewhat misled, I get straight freight-truck-to-the-balls lied to. “Oh yeah, this (1080p) HD TV is more expensive than this other (1080p) HD TV because it has a higher resolution.” “If you’re interested in this (totally devoid of interest, been-on-the-market-for-137-days) house you’ll need to act quickly. I have another couple about to make an offer.” “This $30/ft Monster cable will sound waaaay better than the $8/ft top-end Mogami cable.” Blah blah blah. I’m lucky enough to usually have learned more about the products I’m interested in prior to going in, but let’s not pretend for a moment that most customers are that prepared. Most go in (naively) expecting help, rather than games. I watch them get used every single time.
Often it’s not even the salesman’s fault. It’s imposed on him/her by the management. When I worked at Guitar Center (way back when), the training we went through did its best to turn us into the most obnoxious pests imaginable. The bottom line is that sales, in general, is not known for breeding honesty. Sorry guys. You may be honest as hell, but your compatriots have given your trade a bad rap. Don’t take it personally.
2) On the subject of cash, it’s an ineffective ploy sometimes. Other times it works well. This is entirely dealer/product/timing dependent, and doesn’t really need to be argued. Sometimes it’s not the fact that you are willing to pay cash that does the trick, but rather the indication that you are financially prepared and serious about making a purchase. Especially for somebody like me, or a young (man?) like Elias, it may make the difference between being brushed off by a salesman and being taken seriously. Anyway, let’s drop this as there’s no common case we can fight about
3) On the subject of lying, I think it’s fair to say that, in the common case, being honest with a salesman is a bad idea. While there are decent guys like Elwood and the like out there, I ALWAYS go into a transaction with my guard up. I’m not going to claim that North is purple and that up is clowns, but I’m not going to show my cards, and I may be intentionally misleading. All of this is immediately adjusted for the salesman. If the guy seems honest and friendly, I’ll cut the crap. If he’s really in my face trying to sell me or push me one way or the other, I’ll happily play his game.
Things I’m talking about include acting very hesitant about a purchase long after I’ve made up my mind to go through with it, being very critical or skeptical of a product I know I want and thus forcing the salesman to struggle to “convince me” that I want it, etc.
What you have to understand is that I’ve developed the strategies and behaviors I have as a result of years spent observing the shit my co-workers put their customers through, as well as the tons of scheming, lying, manipulating, and pushing I’ve experienced as a customer myself. It’s a defensive mechanism, and its one I’d much rather not have needed, or continue to need.
You think for a second I wouldn’t love to walk into a store and have a nice, straightforward, honest conversation with the guy behind the counter? Please.
4) Just so we’re clear, being rude to a salesman is never called for. Ever. I’ve been on the receiving end of that too, and it’s no fun. They have demands placed on them by their superiors, demands that often create tremendous pressure to sell. If you really don’t like the salesman you’re dealing with, there are probably others on the floor. Understand that they are, in fact, salesmen whose livelihoods depend on success. Wade through whatever BS they give you politely, play their game, and be done. Being impolite, harsh, pushy, or cruel is just as unfair to them as what you’re trying to defend against is to you.
June 12, 2009 at 2:57 pm #19630WesParticipantProps to bigguybbr for remembering what Americans are about :p I definitely agree with you.
June 12, 2009 at 3:01 pm #19619bigguybbrParticipantI’ve never really had problems in dealerships because I understand there are 2 forces at work:
1) The dealership is a business, not a non-profit or a charity. They are in business to make money. We are American, we are capitalist, we want to be rewarded for working hard, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I don’t worry about about the salesman who is trying to strike up a dialog with me, aslong as he is honest, and it’s upto the buyer to know if he/she is.
2) Being a hard working American, I’m not willing to part with that hard earned money so easily. I want the best value for my dollar. In order to get the best value, I must make sure I have done my homework and know all about what I’m wanting to buy. It’s hard to be taken advantage of when you are well informed.
Now here’s my game plan that I have used everytime I’ve bought a new vehicle. Now be fore-warned that this only works for an item where supply and demand are in balance. You have no bargaining power when demand far out strips supply, and there are many who are knowlingly willing pay a premium.
To start, I am very frank with the dealer, and only go through one negotiation, no bluffing, no games. I tell them I’m willing to offer them their cost for the bike or car, plus 5% profit. There are almost no dealers out there that will turn down that deal, and for every one that does, there are three others that will take it. It covers their advertising exoenses and commissions and allows them to be profitable. If a dealer can’t operate on 5% profit margin then they have a real problem with their business model, and bad business practice is not something I’m willing to pay for.
June 12, 2009 at 3:40 pm #19632Clay DowlingParticipantWhen I bought my car, I payed the dealer’s asking price, no hesitation.
Why? Because we spend two days figuring out what car was right for me. I test drove a bunch of cars. The car I originally came in for was a sweet little BMW Z3 in green. We started to talk numbers, everything was good. Then he asked me about how I was going to use the car, and we came around to the notion that a Z3 sucks in January in Michigan (his notion, not mine). After trying a bunch of other cars I wound up with a Honda Accord for the same price. Not as slick looking, but a lot better in January, and it hauls my canoe without any trouble.
The result? I refer everyone I know who is looking for a car to him, and I’ll definitely buy my next car there.
June 12, 2009 at 5:19 pm #19638EliasParticipant1) Definitely
2) Agreed
3) Sad but true
4) As I previously stated, I engage with salesmen in mature and calm conversations. I do not want to insult them or talk down to them, but rather openly display my knowledge on the product, and react accordingly to come to an accord on a desired price. There is no reason for cruelty in such an exchange. I apologize if anyone got the impression I was bashing on OJ Brown. Although it made me uncomfortable that he repeated himself so much and didn’t answer my questions, we both parted on neutral terms, just as we met on neutral terms.June 12, 2009 at 8:52 pm #19658EliasParticipantLittle food for thought. When was the last time you heard a salesman say “Oh man, that guy who just bought that bike/car totally ripped me off!” Never! And you never will! Because they won’t sell below a certain price. I’m just trying to get it for that certain price, because if they WILL sell it to some other guy for that price, why shouldn’t I be entitled to the same price?? Somehow people are getting the impression I’m trying to get a bike for less than 3% profit margin, taking bites of food out of the children of salesmen everywhere…and that is a mistake on their part. I find the invoice price, add 5% for the dealership commission, and ask for that price. This adjusted price is always under MSRP and acceptable to the dealer, so why not ask for it and save some money.
Look, as far as I can tell, Elwood, Clay and ranette, you guys live in some Pleasantville where people are honest and care about their customers. Don’t get offended by this, it’s NOT a bad thing. I only wish I had the same fortune, to be able to trust most of the people I meet, but I don’t. I live where I live and have learned how to deal with it. We have different views on this simply because your dealerships and salesmen are different (in a good way) than most anyone else’s that I know. So I am throwing in the towel, because honestly this thread is getting old and bland- two viewpoints endlessly defending their point.
You guys are great, and are what make a community like this so amazing. I appreciate all the advice, but we’re going to have to accept our differences on this one and move on.
June 12, 2009 at 11:53 pm #19665ranetteParticipantOk I promised not to reappear in this thread, breaking the promise, but this will be not in the least contentious.
The kooky thing about your reference to where I must live was pretty eerie, actually I grew up in a town, literally next to Pleasantville. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasantville,_NY For many years my family owned a business in Pleasantville. So kudos to you Elias for somehow knowing that. However if you click on the Wikipedia link you see that Pleasantville is located in the suburbs of New York and most of my dealings both on the sales and consumer end were in New York City, a place that I called home for 16 years, my guess is that is not what you meant by Pleasantville. All I’m saying is that there are all types in all places, some of the most honest, hardworking people you’ll ever find live in big cities and trust me I’ve met plenty of unscrupulous people since I’ve moved to the hills. One thing I can say with some amount of certainty is that there are both good and bad places to do business with in both Phoenix and New York. You might not think there are any, but they’re there.
I think what Elwood was getting at was that if you approach people in a professional and honest manner you have a better chance of being treated that way back and it will lead to a more productive relationship down the road for both customer and merchant. That’s the only way you’ll end up dealing with the Elwoods of the world because a salesperson who sees himself as a professional, who follows up and helps his customers long after the sale, the kind you find in Pleasantville, will pass up a sale if he feels he is being lied to. You have every right to get the best price that you’re able to, I would never say that you don’t, I just feel there are other paths to that destination. If I told you what I paid for my brand new Ducati GT1000 you probably wouldn’t believe me, the deal was that good, I simply found a bike that they wanted to move and stuck to my price. My car was also a great deal. The scooter, well I bought the scooter during last summer’s scooter boom, there were none to be found and MSRP was considered a good deal, but I bonded with the owner and he actually drove the bike from NY to Vermont and dropped it in my parking lot. Sure, coincidentally his parents lived 45 minutes from here but he still drove 600 miles on a weekend he wasn’t planning to(his mom called to thank me) and trust me that bike wouldn’t have sat in his shop for more than a week if I hadn’t bought it. That dealership is in Brooklyn well known home of patsies and pushovers.
As you said I don’t think this thread can go anywhere else, simply two divergent points of view. I kind of wish I didn’t live 3000 miles from Phoenix. Might be fun if we could both set out in the morning with that wad of cash(your cash of course cuz it’s going to be your bike), and see who has a better experience, and yes, who gets the better deal.
Pleasantivlle, still can’t figure out how the !@#$% he knew that?
June 15, 2009 at 3:15 pm #19731Clay DowlingParticipanthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint,_Michigan
That’s the area where I live. It ain’t Pleasantville. I expect a salesman is going to try to get every advantage he can, and the Flint area is known for some of the worst customer service at the retail level of any city. It isn’t uncommon to have trouble finding somebody to sell you something.
Like Elwood said, you’ve got to deal straight up with folks. If you take a hostile approach, you will get hostile results. If you’re cool, chances are they’ll be cool too. Even the “crooked” dealer will probably be okay to deal with if you’re straight up with him.
Not saying to trust these guys. That would be stupid. Verify that what you’re signing is what you agreed to. On a used vehicle, verify that it works properly.
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