- This topic has 13 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 3 months ago by eon.
Drove an S4 today, and dual clutch gearboxes are on the rise
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January 20, 2010 at 9:36 am #3658eternal05Participant
My girlfriend just bought herself a VW GTI. While we were waiting for the guys at the VW-Audi dealership here in Seattle to detail the car, the salesman (same guy I bought my car through) took me out for a joyride in a 2010 Audi S4:
Holy crap. There are so many things to talk about. First off, the 2010 model has a smaller engine. Rather than the traditional naturally aspirated 4.2L V8, the new model has a supercharged 3.0L V6. While Audi’s published numbers put the V6 at 333hp at the crank (as opposed to the 340hp of the V8), Achtuning, a German-make tuning shop in Redmond (think Microsoft’s headquarters) dyno’d the new 2010 S4 at over 330hp AT THE WHEELS! This engine hauls! I’ve never been in a car that came close to reproducing the thrill of full-throttle on a sportsbike until this. It’s unreal. The best part is, it gets the same fuel economy as my 2.0L I4…well crap. If only they didn’t start at $45,000
The model I got to drive has Audi’s “S-Tronic” transmission in it. Every brand has a different name for “dual clutch gearbox.” Audi’s is “S-Tronic.” Volkswagen calls it “DSG” (Direct Shift Gearbox). Whatever. It’s the same thing that’s in the new Honda VFR1200F if you’ve read anything about that. Here’s the low-down for anybody who’s new to this:
Manual transmission: it’s what 99.9999% of motorcycles have used to this day, and probably what you’re used to. The human operator chooses a gear manually, operating a clutch to disengage the transmission from the engine when shifting, starting, or stopping is required.
Automatic: NOT just an automated manual transmission. Most automatic transmissions are actually a crazy series of pulleys, gears, clutches, and belts that are WAAAY more complex than your standard manual transmission. A gizmo called a torque converter provides a similar function to the clutch in a manual transmission, allowing slippage if the forces exerted on it would normally cause the engine to die (e.g. when you brake to a stop). Automatic transmissions, while better today than they were in the past, are usually slower to shift and less efficient than an ace driver with a manual transmission.
Dual clutch gearbox: This IS a type of automated manual transmission, but different than the electrohydraulic transmissions used by, for instance, Ferrari F1 cars. The catch is that, rather than having one set of gears and a single clutch, you have two sets of gears and two different clutches. While different implementations vary, the basic idea is that you split up the gears among the two clutches. For instance, in the Audis, gears 1-3-5 are attached to clutch #1. Gears 2-4-6 are attached to clutch #2. When you’re in first gear, the first “half” of the transmission is engaged in 1st, clutch #1 is in. The second “half” of the transmission is ready to go in 2nd gear, but clutch #2 is disengaged. The minute a shift is needed, a computer quickly disengages clutch #1 and engages clutch #2, engaging 2nd gear in the process. Most dual clutch gearboxes I’ve seen can either be put in full auto (as far as the driver is concerned, it’s an automatic transmission; the car chooses when to shift) or the driver can choose when to shift. Either way, there’s no clutch pedal. The advantage is that shifting happens MUCH faster than any human could do it. There’s no noticeable interruption in power delivery.
Well, while the DSG in my girlfriend’s new car is not my favorite (downshifts are pretty rough), the S-tronic transmission in the S4 is absurd. You can barely feel any shift, up or down (it rev matches for you on downshifts), and more often than not, you can’t feel it at all. To top that off, it upshifts incredibly quickly (somewhere on the order of 0.008 seconds!). It’s slower when you shift in a way that the transmission didn’t anticipate (e.g. down). It’s really an amazing piece of technology.
I have to be honest, though. I hate to see the clutch pedal go. While there is no question that I’d be faster around a track with a dual clutch gearbox (for reasons of having more free attention to spare even more than the extra performance), I have to say I have more fun driving your standard manual. This is especially true for most people, where being 0.5 seconds faster around a 2 mile circuit means jack and S#$%. Just as I’d have less fun with a car that could drive itself, I miss having the extra challenges of a clutch. But most people don’t, and with traffic the way it is these days, I can’t blame them. All the same, I really hate the knowledge that clutches are soon going to be obsolete. Already, in 2010, it’s hard to find a true manual Audi or Volkswagen. Phooey.
January 20, 2010 at 3:43 pm #24091JackTradeParticipantModern cars, even performance cars, are becoming less about driving and more about being conveyed in a gadget-laden pod. Corvettes now come standard with automatics. You have to order a real, clutched manual as an option. Sigh.
It’s ironic that as cars become faster and faster, the driver is less and less involved in that’s going on. The line between playing a high-end driving videogame and actually driving a car is fast becoming blurred.
That’s one of the reasons motorcycles appeal to me…they’re in a lot of ways a step back to a different time. To ride one, you have to be intimately involved with what’s happening…they demand your attention and involvement. As we all know, your attention wanders, and really bad things can happen fast.
For me, vehicles are about the immediacy of the experience, and the skill to pilot them well. I no longer lust after high-end exotic cars like I used to…most of them now aren’t really fun in any real-world way. They’re mostly about theoretical numbers and bragging rights.
January 20, 2010 at 3:56 pm #24093eternal05ParticipantI almost agreed with you 100% until you said this:
“I no longer lust after high-end exotic cars like I used to…most of them now aren’t really fun in any real-world way. They’re mostly about theoretical numbers and bragging rights.”
Believe me, mate…those cars are PLENTY of real-world fun. While driving that S4 I was having way too much fun with the handling, the engine, and shifting around through the gearbox to miss the clutch pedal. Would I rather have had a clutch pedal? Yes. Was I a sad panda without it? Noooooo!
In the SPIRIT of what you were saying, of course I agree. Consumers shouldn’t care whether the car is 2% faster on a closed circuit. They should care about the visceral aspect, the feeling of connection with the car, the experience, etc. The auto manufacturers should therefore focus on giving their customers exactly that…a visceral experience. And you’re right, that focus is waning in high-end car development.
January 20, 2010 at 5:57 pm #24096JackTradeParticipantEh, not for me. I’m just that way I guess. I’m the kinda guy that prefers hand-crank windows in a coupe and detests built-in nav systems in all cars. Unsurprisingly, my idea of a great exotic is a Lotus Elise.
Years ago, got a chance to get behind the wheel of a Ferrari 355 with one, and yeah, it was one cool car, but I couldn’t help feel something was missing. Not performance wise (not that I pushed it), but something in the practice of driving…
Or how Porsche 911s have steadily over the years lost that “I’ll kill you if you look at me the wrong way” handling dynamic. Yeah, they’re amazing cars still, and are reaching ever higher performance levels, but it’s just not the same.
Such is progress I suppose, and honestly, it’s all relative in the end…I’m sure there are people that think motorcycles with electric starters are for wimps or that synchromeshed manuals in cars are an unnecessary modern convenience.
January 20, 2010 at 9:20 pm #24098eternal05ParticipantAnd like I said, I feel the same way. I mean, hell, I still make the totally irrational decision to double-clutch in my synchronized manual car just because I figure that I might, one day, get stuck on a desert island with nothing but a 1940s tractor to get around on. Now it’s second nature. It’s silly of me, but I just like having that much more to do. So believe me, I understand.
All I’m saying is, you might have more fun behind the wheel of these cars than you might think, even if you’re never getting past 50mph. Totally impractical? Yup. Unjustifiably expensive? For sure. Good value? No way. Would I jump on the chance to take something like that out for a spin again? Helllll yes.
January 20, 2010 at 9:38 pm #24099JackTradeParticipantYou’re right of course…I’d never actually pass up a chance to drive one.
I’ll try to drive anything I can get my hands on in all honesty. I’m the kinda of guy that’s picky about being able to choose exactly what rental car I get, and even if an upgrade may be available, I’ll still stick with my choice if it’s a car I want to drive.
When they first came out, I really liked the Ford Focus (still do, though I miss the first gen one)…every time I had occasion to rent, I tried to reserve one. But invariable when I got to the counter, it was something along these lines:
Counter Guy: “sorry, sir…not seeing one right now, but we’ll upgrade you to a Mustang for free!”
Me: “but I don’t want a Mustang…I want a Focus!”
Counter Guy: “But the Mustang is cooler.”
Me: “I know, but…”January 21, 2010 at 12:13 am #24102eonParticipantMy last car was a 3.0 V6 A4 Quattro and I loved it to bits. Practical, reliable and fun. I regret that I sold it (after 5 years and 50,000 miles) but it did pay for the scooter. The ex-wife had a 2.0 Passat and then the A4 but it was not the same car without the V6 and 4 wheel drive. But if you are looking for a fun engaging car then they are still out there and you don’t have to pay mega bucks. My car before the A4 was a Honda S2000 and I cannot say enough about that car. I have never felt so much feedback in a car as that thing. If I ran over a pea sized stone I would know about it. The engine would rev up to 9000 rpm and scream like a banshee. No driver aids, just 240hp in a very light rear wheel drive soft top.
I took my older brother out for a spin who is a long time biker (currently owns a Hond a CBR 1000) and I had him laughing manically as I whipped round bends at seemingly silly speeds. Experiencing side ways g-force in a car is an interesting experience. Jeremy Clarkson is a fan if that matters to you
Ok, I’m rambling again. Sold that car 8 years ago and I thought I was over it. I still look at the lease prices when I consider getting a car….
edit: forgot to mention the gearbox in the S2000 was a joy to use. The gear stick had a very short throw and it just snicked into gear.
January 21, 2010 at 12:45 am #24104MunchParticipantTell you boys like I tell the guys at work….. wether it be a Focus, a Porsche, or a Bently……. 65-75 mph is the same either way. Only difference is wether or not You think its cool. The speed limits remain constant the only real things that get bigger are the repair bills, the speeding tickets and the injuries when things go bad.
16K Accord… or 45k Audi (read Owy) I’ll save the extra cash and get me another bike.January 21, 2010 at 1:00 am #24105eonParticipantI don’t agree that 65mph is the same whatever car you drive. I’ve done over 100 in the A4 without realizing it but 30mph in the Honda felt really fast. Your ass is just inches off the ground, the engine is screaming and you feel every bump in the road. The real fun of a true sports car is in the twisties. Straight line speed is boring. Taking a corner well is fun. In truth all the things that are fun with bikes apply to sport cars. I don’t count muscle cars as sport cars, all they are good for is straight line speed and sounding good. Just like a Harley then
January 21, 2010 at 1:05 am #24106MunchParticipant“I don’t count muscle cars as sport cars, all they are good for is straight line speed and sounding good.”
Don’t let an old “Shiner” hear you say that. The man will take you to the hills and make your sports car look like a red rider wagon coming down off the mountain.
and yes 65 is 65 ……. the dial will say it and so will the radar gun. The feeling is perception and at an additional 30k ….maybe I will just occasionally close my eyes if I want to feel dangerous.January 21, 2010 at 4:10 pm #24114JackTradeParticipant…used to have a slogan “Safety Fast”. While British Leyland didn’t mean it in this way, it can be read to say that in a small, open car, 35 mph feels much faster than it really is…you get the thrill of a sense of tremendous speed w/o the danger of actual tremendous speed.
Know what you (Eon) mean about “connection” to the experience…in many modern cars, you can easily hit near triple digits and not really have any sense of it other than what your speedo tells you.
Don’t knock muscle cars though. They’re in a class of their own, and while it’s true they don’t handle (or brake for that matter!), the power they put out (both stock and when modded) is impressive when you consider the cost.
They’re not really like Harleys…most Harleys are NOT fast (VRSC bikes excepted) in the grand scheme of bikes, but real muscle cars are in the car world. Many of the 40 year old ones of the golden age can easily get down into 13 second ETs in the quarter mile, which is impressive to this day.
I love ’em for their wonderfully American character…born for a country of wide-open spaces and straight roads that in many places come in nicely quarter-mile lengths!
January 21, 2010 at 9:49 pm #24128eternal05ParticipantI’d never own one…for a number of reasons, but they’re definitely fun. Back in high school, one of my friends got an old 4-speed Nova (350 cu in. or 5.7L V8), practically falling apart, and refurbished it. Sitting at a stop light idling in that thing was like riding the mechanical bull at a carnival. It was insane. The sound it made was absurd, and the pull from a red light seemed out of this world to me at the time.
But god forbid you try to turn…heh…
January 21, 2010 at 9:55 pm #24129eternal05ParticipantI know what you mean. I drive an ’06 2.0T I4 A4 Quattro and I love it to just as many bits. It was the replacement for the 1.8T I4 Jetta FWD that I had before that, and the A4 is just better in every way.
Have you heard about the new, 2009+ 2.0T engine? I had to take my car in for service and they gave me a loaner Passat with the new 2.0T. Until I got out and looked at the rear badging, I could have sworn I was in the V6. It’s insane. It makes 211hp and 265 lb-ft of torque! AND it gets better fuel economy than my earlier version of the 2.0T! It now makes more torque than the V6, so there’s really no point in getting the extra 2 cylinders, especially since it ruins your fuel economy.
January 22, 2010 at 10:07 pm #24145eonParticipantmrs eon just renewed her lease last September and swapped her 2006 2.0T A4 FWD for the current version (but with 4wd). I was there and heard the sales spiel but the only bit I remember is the car is now longer but lighter. I have not actually driven it yet but I do know the inside seems to have had a nice upgrade.
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