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600 Is Too Much!…No It Isn’t!…Yes It Is!…No It Isn’t!
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March 4, 2009 at 8:50 pm #2583EliasParticipant
Excuse my bluntness, I’m a bit burned out from all this research…
I have been through hundreds of threads on several forums. I have researched through magazine articles, e-zine’s, and inquired to experienced riders (Over several months). I signed up for this forum and thought I finally found an answer, but then I found a big discrepancy. The question I have been asking everyone IS:
“Is 600cc too much for a beginner rider?”
Now I have found that some people take this topic very seriously and can get a little ‘excited’ about making a point about how little experience someone has or how much power a bike has. But please understand that I am not one to give excuses why I think I should get one, nor am I searching for biased approval in order to ease my own mind. I am simply interested in becoming a safe and responsible rider from the get-go, and interested in any direction that the experienced riders have.
The conclusion that I have come up with is that 600cc is TOO MUCH for a beginner walking out of MSF and into a dealership (or craigslist). But, here in lies the discrepancy.
I have been bouncing back and fourth reading/hearing things from different people about how 600 is too much…no it’s not…yes it is…so on and so forth. This has confused me so much I’ve gone from Buell Blast to SV650…to KLX 400…to 650R…etc. But let’s just focus on the 600cc+ bikes for the sake of simplicity.
On this forum, I have found an overwhelming number of reviews that say the ‘Saki 650R (and SV650) is a great beginner bike. Just browse on through the forums, I’m sure you’ve seen them. But then one click away to “Beginner Motorcycle Guides” and there they are: several articles about how a beginner should avoid 600cc+ bikes like the plague. And so instead of running in circles around the WWW, I thought maybe I could have someone here straighten this paradox out for me.
Yes, it is likely that different people have different opinions and therefore wrote different things online *gasp*…but then why so much praise and support for the consideration of a 650R for a first bike from the community at “Best Beginner Motorcycles” when it’s not recommended to buy 600cc+?
Okay, that’s my rant, sorry I didn’t intro myself on your forum yet, I will do that soon! Thanks for the help, and I love the site!
March 4, 2009 at 9:18 pm #16891nau_lax21Participantthe engine type is a big factor. the inline 4 600s are gonna be a lot faster than the 650 2cyl engines (sv650, 650r, even monster 696)
the 600s that are terrible for a beginner, again, are the I4s (GSXR600, R6, ZX-6R, CBR600, etc…)
personally i think that if youre a new rider stay away from anything with that much power, youll learn much quicker that way. (unless youre looking at cruisers)
id be looking at the ninja 250 or 500, gs500, blast, that kinda bike. all your choice in the end tho.
hope that helps
March 4, 2009 at 10:03 pm #16896EliasParticipantI’ve heard that argument before, and it is something I have seriously taken into consideration. But doesn’t the twins increase in torque cancel out the decrease in power you are referring to (in regards to this discussion)?
Also, the 500R is an I-4. If your argument holds true that an I-4 is a lot faster than a V-2 or P-2, then will the difference between a 500cc I-4 and a 600cc V-2 be negligible when compared? In applying this, the power of these two engines seem pretty damn close too be claiming that the difference between these two engines makes a world of difference for beginners. But it might, and that’s why I’m here, to find out why.
So is we apply this theory to the paradox, we have:
“A 650cc V-Twin is a good beginner bike, but a 600cc I-4 is not.”
For what they are claiming, those numbers just don’t add up to me.
What else?
March 4, 2009 at 10:13 pm #16897briderdtParticipantSport? Cruiser? Dual-sport?
That’s the first question you need to answer. That will also be independent of “size”. And each type is going to have (in general) a different type of throttle response and power deliver curve, which should then help to determine the engine size you get.
As nau suggested, the configuration of the engine will determine how “beginner friendly” a certain engine size will be, to pretty much an equal extent as the size (displacement). Yeah, I started on a SV650s. And I was VERY intimidated when I got on that thing for the first time (I can’t imagine how people climb onto a ‘Busa the first time must feel). Part of it was that I’d never been on a motorcycle before in my life, and part of it was the on/off feeling of the throttle (somewhat unique to that bike). But after going through the MSF class and having some time on the bike, I’m pretty okay with it.
Now why did I choose the SV? (1) I wanted EFI, because I didn’t want to have to mess with carbs and a choke. (2) My wife and I had planned on taking some trips together this summer (on separate bikes).
And now 3 months on, would I have done things differently? Probably. Why? (1) I found out that chokes and carbs aren’t a big deal, and really don’t require much more in the way of upkeep. (2) My wife didn’t pass her MSF class, and then promptly sprained her right wrist, so she can’t ride. Nixxed the plans of trips this summer.
What would I have done differently? Probably would have gotten a used Ninja 250 and ridden the cr@p out of it. I’m okay with the SV, and really don’t “regret” having the bike. I’m still pretty tentative in the corners, but that is mostly due to sand on the road (thanks DOT!!!) than any real fear of taking a corner.
Oh, and my wife? She wouldn’t listen to anything I said, and insisted on getting a Suzuki C50… That thing is a good 100lbs heavier than my bike, and she has all kinds of trouble even getting that thing moving. Just a couple weeks ago, she sheepishly admitted that she “probably” should have gotten a smaller bike…
DUH!
Don’t know if that helps at all. Just my (limited) experience.
March 4, 2009 at 10:17 pm #16898briderdtParticipantThat I-4 will tend to have a boost-point, kind of like kicking in nitrous, when you hit a certain RPM. V-twins tend to be a lot more even throughout the RPM range (and are thus much more predictable).
March 4, 2009 at 10:45 pm #16899EliasParticipantPower band, another good point. So it is acceptable to say that the V-2 and P-2 engines have a more consistent power band throughout, making it more predictable, and thus, easier to ride. So let’s compile to show our progress on this topic:
“A 650cc V-Twin is a good beginner bike, but a 600cc I-4 is not.”
Because:
(1) 2-cyl bikes have less HP, while 4-cyl bikes have more
(2) 2-cyl bikes have a predictable power range, while a 4-cyl bike’s throttle is more ‘explosive’Now as for your question, I am a beginner so my experience on bikes is limited. While I have ridden dirt bikes and crotch rockets limited distances, I have only sat on cruisers before. I like the way the cruiser feels, but it is not the look I want, it’s just not me. I think dirt bikes are comfortable enough, but a little high. And sport bikes seem to have the happy-medium of the look and feel I am going for. My first bike will only be for local trips and transportation, so long-distance comfort isn’t a huge issue to me.
I find it interesting that you would have done things differently if you could go back. Only one of the two reasons for your decision apply to me, so I will address that one: carbs vs FI.
I have had a carb’d 650cc quad for years, and I’m looking forward to going FI. IMHO, cleaning out a carb (at least on my quad) is a real…pain, to say the least. Now some carbs might be easier to get to than my quad’s, and easier to clean, but I would rather just move on from that whole experience.
I’m assuming you’ve been on a Blast since you took the MSF course. If you started over, would you have chosen a Blast or an SV650S?
Appreciate the feedback.
March 4, 2009 at 11:10 pm #16900PhilUpParticipantThe 500r if you are talking about the ninja is a parallel twin not an i-4. As to what makes a good beginner bike for you, I think that is up to you. Most of the bikes recommended on this site for beginners take many factors into account, riding position and ergonomics, cost, power, and manageability. A v-twin will have more torque but less horsepower and lower engine speed. Take the ninja 650r for example. I think it will have like 65 hp. Much more manageable for everyday riding situations. Most of those super sport bikes have over 100 hp and are essentially race bikes made street legal. You won’t legally or safely untap their potential until you hit the track. I read all the research and advice when I got my first bike and decided on a ninja 250 only because I wanted to have as many variables working in my favor with the goal of becoming a good and safe rider. If I hit a bump and roll the throttle on my 250, I will learn from my mistake without injury and live to use that experience. Do that with a r6 or a cbr600rr, I am not so sure the outcome will be the same. I love riding but I totally recognize the dangers that it can present. Why not take it slow and work your way up? Only you really know what you are willing to risk and handle, though.
March 5, 2009 at 12:36 am #16904EliasParticipantBravo. That pretty much sums up the average of all the advice I have received in my research these past few months. And apologies on the 500R mistake, you are correct, it is in fact a P-2…all the better! I was walking today and a Blast drove by me when it occurred to me that it was a good all around choice. I always believed that I would buy a bike with low displacement, but what I wanted to find out here was why 650R’s and SV650’s are considered exceptions to the “Start off lower than 600cc” rule (as per the recommendations on this site). I guess mechanically it’s just a bit less wild, but it’s still a big beginner bike.
Any present 650R owners have any input? Even better, anyone who started on a 650R?
Where’s acidpope? TheAbomb12? MattM?
March 5, 2009 at 1:29 am #16906briderdtParticipantAnd actually REALLY early on in my selection process I considered it. But I had read some reviews that talked about some reliability problems (and vibration). Probably something that has been addressed in more recent production years, but I was looking at used bikes anyway.
The bike I rode in the MSF class was a Honda Nighthawk 250 — what would be considered a “standard” riding position. The leg position was almost the same as my SV, but the handlebars were MUCH higher. My bike has Heli Bars, which raise the position up about 1.5″ and back about 1″ from stock clipons.
If you’re after the sporty look, then bikes like the Ninja 250, 500, or the GS500F (Suzuki) would be good options (higher handlebar position). Also, if you’re wanting something small with FI, the TU250 is a standard (though not much of the sporty look) that is about the only 250 I know of with FI.
March 5, 2009 at 1:47 am #16907eonParticipantThis seems a pretty snide reply. Not sure if that was your intention but it came across that way.
I’m afraid I cannot help with your quest for answers as I am the most mechanically retarded guy there is, but it is obvious to me there is more to the equation than simple cc’s, or even engine configuration. Other issues such as weight, ride height, gear ratios, suspension, rake/trail, wheel size, brakes; all of these would factor into whether a particular bike is beginner friendly or not. As to why one 650cc engine produces twice the HP of another, I’ll leave that to the engineers to explain.
March 5, 2009 at 2:03 am #16910EliasParticipantNope, not trying to be rude at all. What PhilUp wrote was spot-on and I was complimenting him on compressing what I have learned in all my research. I could throw in some smileys and lol’s to lighten the mood if you want? Just kidding, really…
But you make a very good point that hasn’t been brought up yet: to consider the other factors that make or break a beginner bike. I suppose the reason I focused on size and configuration was because it seemed that the majority of people praising 650R’s as a beginner bike were basing that off of engine size and configuration (throttle predictability). I am trying to get to the bottom of the most common arguments out there that are for or against the 650R as a first bike, and why they oppose one another.
March 5, 2009 at 3:04 am #16911MattParticipantPeople have started on ‘Busa’s. The fact that it is possible does not make it a good idea.
Reasons for a 650R:
-It is new ans stylish
-the 650 parallel engine produces a flat torque curve, so no matter where you are in the power band, the same twist of the throttle will result in the same increase in acceleration. (This is not the case in a rising torque curve like a I4, where the higher the rpm, the more pronounced the effect of the throttle will be).
-The suspension, brakes, and geometry are “good enough” by sporting standards; that is, they work and do their job, but do not do it so well as to be grabby or twitchy – aka the sport bike where a sudden fistful of brake results in flipping end over end.The reasons against:
-Despite not reacting quickly and twitchy to all inputs (again, like a sport), nor being overly heavy, the Ninja 650 and SV650 both work in the realm of what was a super bike 20 years ago. They accelerate very quickly, they stop very quickly, and they turn in very quickly. In normal riding situations these traits are not too much for a confident rider IMO. The issue becomes when in stressful situations. The rider can still wheelie the bike with a clutch let out too fast, or stoppie the bike (or worse) with too tight a right hand.
The confidence the bike exudes can easily get a rider in over their head. Doing great, feeling great, you’re in the moment, then you realize you’re coming into the corner too hot. Most riders will try to loose as much speed as possible. The number of things they can screw up here is huge – target fixate on the shoulder, lock the wheels, etc. The new rider simply doesn’t have either the mental or physical skills yet to deal with it.
And everyone does it – mistakes are how we learn.
But on a lighter, slower, less stiff bike, you aren’t going as fast, your brain has more time to see what it is doing wrong and correct. Additionally, the “lesser” bikes are more forgiving to over-corrections (which all new drivers and new riders do, it is part of muscle learning).Now, if you have dirt bike experience, and you think you’ve got what it takes to tame the 650, go for it. But don’t say it is fine for everyone, because it isn’t.
But also remember that smooth control of the bike and yourself is only half the equation. The other half is managing the road and other road users.
I know at least two guys who started on dirt bikes, raced them, and damn near made a mess in their pants the first time on a twisty road with traffic. Just because you have 75% of the muscle memory you need doesn’t give you the mental skills you need to hold your line around a corner with an 18 wheeler barreling down on you. It’s a different mind game than being in the dirt.And that mind game is made easier when you aren’t worrying about your bike. As they say, each rider only has $10 worth of concentration. On a busy road you need at least $5 just for the other traffic and $2 spent on figuring out your immediate route. Now if you’re a new rider on a bike that requires careful smooth operation you’ll be spending another buck on keeping your throttle smooth, another worrying about shifting, and another one on the brakes. So what happens to your mental capacity when something else pops up? Something’s going to give.
It’s much nicer when you’re on machine that “just does what you want” without any surprises. It gives you more room for error.I had about 1000 kms under my belt on a trio of bikes (GS450 making about 45hp, and a VF500F making 65hp, and a ZZR-250 making 35hp) when I test rode a BMW F650GS (making 75hp and 55 foot pounds of torque). Despite my experience, that bike made me very aware, the entire time, of how fast it could haul, how hard it could brake, and just how easy it was to turn. Frankly, it was too fast in every way. I spent a lot of energy making sure I didn’t bin it. When I drove home on my 250, my brain was free to enjoy the ride.
When I took my ERC, three of the guys there were on CBR125s. Tiny little “toy” bikes. They all had slightly less road time than I had. But when it came to controlling their bikes, they rode like the veterans on the 600s. They leaned those bikes over so far, braked so hard. Having seen that, there is no question in my mind that the best tool to learn on is an easy and forgiving one that you can “forget about” and just focus on your riding.
You are absolutely right about how everyone tries to simplify what makes a good bike down to displacement. Similarly everyone tries to link displacement directly with performance. And really, displacement is only a broad indicator of all the things that make a bike easy or hard, slow or fast. Just don’t make the mistake of discrediting over-simplification as lack of reason.
March 5, 2009 at 3:17 am #16914MattParticipantFirstly, bikes are meant to ride, not sit. The worst thing you can do to a bike is let it sit.
Secondly, Ethanol is your friend.Run 10% mixed ethanol (sometimes called “winter gas”, available year round all over the place). All gas vehicle sold in North America can run it without issue (it is often the only gas available in the winter where the temps drop below -20 on a regular basis).
Ethanol is a nasty solvent (it dissolves gas lines at higher mix ratios, hence why you can’t put E85 in a regular car). But it also dissolves the crud that might build up in carbs. Running a couple tanks of it will do wonders for slightly gunky carbs.
But frankly, that should never be an issue. Just don’t let the bike sit with gas in the carbs long enough for them to gunk up. If the bike is going to sit for three weeks or more, put some fuel stabilizer in it and make sure it makes its way down to the carb. The only motorcycles I’ve ever heard of needing carbs cleaned are ones that sat without fuel stabilizer. In two years of having three bikes in my family, all of them carb’d until just recently, never had an issue with a carb.
March 5, 2009 at 3:20 am #16915eonParticipantWow Matt, great post. Especially interesting as that BMW F650GS is firmly in my sights as my next bike. Looks like I will have to take it nice and easy if (when!) I get one.
Elias, sorry I misinterpreted your intent. Oh so easy to do on forums like this (at least for me). I know you are trying to understand what makes a good beginner bike but you could just take the easy way out like me. Buy a scooter and no matter the size, you won’t need to worry about too much power!
March 5, 2009 at 1:09 pm #16923Sangria7ParticipantLots of good points in this topic.
Just remember everyone has different learning curves and different abilities. What you have to remember is be honest with your own skills. Don’t let anyone tell you what you can or cannot do – saying that, take into consideration everything said here.
I made the jump from a 250 to a 650 in 30 days and a lot of people flamed me for it – but now with 4000 miles under the saddle; I am glad I tried out the 250 first and made me a better rider on my 650. When I go to rallies, a lot of veteran riders think I have been riding for at least 5 years ..hehe.
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