[eon]

My first pair of pants were the Tourmaster Flex something or other, and I was really happy with them. I could only get a size small so I didn’t wear anything under them (and I still had to suck in my gut) but they worked pretty well for a $100 pair of pants. The thing I loved about them was the flexibility. They had an internal waterproof layer you could take out and on the outside, you could actually zip off the top layer leaving a mesh layer beneath. Pretty flexible. Not sure how waterproof they actually were as on my scoot my legs are really protected from the elements.

If it’s just a waterproof layer you are looking to add (assuming you have protection already covered) then I can’t recommend enough getting a separate waterproof layer. ie. not motorcycle pants, just rain gear.
I fought going down this road for a long time but wondered why once I did. Admittedly I lucked out and used my waterproof pants from my skiing outfit (which had seen about 2 uses over 3 years) and my waterproof jacket from my cycling days. So for me the price was right! If you get decent rain pants that can breath then you should be set. I think my pair is Marmott something. Last I checked I think they retailed around US$120. They are designed for hikers so they have a toughened layer around the ankles to prevent tearing. Don’t think this would offer protection from a hot exhaust though but it’s nice to have.

[eon]

Impossible to say without knowing more about the 2008 bike. Like how many miles? I assume it appears to be in great condition but I think it really comes down to what you want. Is having a new bike worth the extra $1000 to you? But $4500 sounds like an amazing deal. A guy here got one for $5100 and I thought that was great. Remember the MSRP of the new ones is $7700.

[eon]

What’s my prize?

But the argument continues
If you were to take a 75kg lump of lead off the seat and then put it on the pegs, I agree you would lower the bikes COG. But you are not a point mass. You are somewhere around 5 to 6 feet tall. When you stand you raise your cog.

Where you apply your weight (which is a force) has a profound impact on how the bike behaves. But cog has nothing to do with forces. It is the mean mass (or mass center) of an object. Two separate concepts.

But now I am waiting for Owlie to explain for us how countersteering works.

[eon]

Finding the center of gravity is actually very simple. When an object is suspended so that it can move freely its center of gravity is always directly below the point of suspension. Do this from several different points and where all these imaginery lines intersect is your center of gravity.

Or alternatively, take your motorcycle and rider and turn them upside down. Are you saying the center of gravity now moves down to somewhere in the riders chest? Remember that center of gravity is defined as “the point in any object about which it is in perfect balance no matter how it is turned or rotated around that point”.

[eon]

You will get plenty of committed advocates on both sides of the fence, but I have read multliple accounts of those who went “naked” and then wondered why after they added a shield. I cannot recall ever reading of someone who took a windshield off and loved it. My scoot had came with the shield attached and I took it off one day when the temps got up to 100′. I put it back on as soon as I got home. Plus, I cannot imagine all the shit that gets stuck to the shield being on me. That would be gross even by my low standards

Only thing to watch out for is sometimes it can be a challenge finding the right shield for you. Get one at the wrong height and it can cause more problems than it solves.

[eon]

TR, I have no doubt whatsoever the techniques you describe work. No doubt at all. You are a better rider than I ever will be so I trust what you say. If you say standing up works, I believe you. Moving your weight back and forward has all of the affects you say it does. But when you start describing why they work I might disagree with you.

As I mentioned before I first looked into this some months ago after reading conflicting opinions online. The consensus from physics types was that the point of attachment (seat or pegs) has no impact on COG. That might seem strange to us lesser mortals as point of attachment has a big impact on handling, but I think we are confusing the affects we feel and know to be real with some fuzzy idea of what center of gravity is.

Once last thing to consider. When I went searching for answers to the physics of how a bike handles I was expecting to find a definitive answer (which I did for the COG argument). But I was floored to learn the physics of how a bicycle steers, corners etc is extremely complex. So much so that physics struggles to explain it. Something a 5 year old can do by touch and feel a Professor of Physics cannot really explain.

[eon]

I don’t think we are splitting hairs as the combined COG of bike/rider is not lowered, it is in fact raised. You have a technique that 100% works but your explanation of why it works is just simply wrong. In my book that damages your argument to use the technique as you have lost credibility.

I prefer to use the term center of mass as I think it is easier to understand what that means. And while COM and COG are different physical concepts, we can use the two interchangeably if you don’t plan on leaving the surface of the earth.

The bikes center of mass is not going to change, that’s pretty easy to understand.
But you can change the location of your center of mass by changing your shape. Standing up obviously raises you COM versus crouching in a ball.
By changing your COM you can change the combined COM of bike and rider.
So by standing up you raise the combined COM. It’s hard to separate the notion of where you are “attached” to the bike from COM but the two are not related. You do not even need to be attached to the bike to have a combined COM but now we are getting into planetary physics

What you can do is change where the force of your weight is applied to the bike, so yes, front to back weighting is definitely something you can do.

[eon]

I was intending posting the exact same thread but you beat me to it. I thought I was the only one who gets irritated by this. This is one of those nuggets that you keep reading that seems completely counter intuitive, so several months back I went looking on physics forums to find out the answer. Like eternal says, it is completely untrue. The opposite is true in fact, standing up raises your center of gravity. Now, if you want to get deeper into it apparently a higher center of gravity make it easier to steer at speed, something to do with inverted pendulum (I admit I got lost at this point). The simple way I think of it is standing on the pegs effectively creates a hinge in your combined mass. As the bike moves one way you can move the other (weighting the outside peg) keeping your combined COG over the wheels and therefore upright.

There are many skilled riders out there who know how to ride but I’m not going to believe them when they start talking theoretical physics. Lee Parks is a prime sinner in this (as well as burying his useful information in layers of obscure quotes and zen existentialism). I’m thinking the number of highly skilled riders out there who have a degree in mechanical physics are few and far between.

[eon]

I’m supposed to make a video for someone on my scooter forum showing me doing the box (or at least a tight turn). The guy is having trouble doing it (new rider) and needed some persuading it is possible on our scooters. At least the guy is trying. I get frustrated with this other forum as I seem to be the lone voice talking about riding skills and techniques. All everyone else can talk about is mods to the bike (or faults on the bike, it is Italian after all). If I ever get around to making this video I will post it up here and you can all critique my style. Just remember I have no pegs to stand on

[eon]

When I got to the point where I could do it sometimes, it felt scary and sloppy and almost out of control. I then seemed to have a breakthrough when I consciously focussed on having a relaxed grip. I think the fear I was about to drop it (as you mentioned, it feels like you are about to fall the whole way through) meant I tensed up and lost any fine control. Once I relaxed it suddenly seemed to come easy. Have to say I now do U-Turns in the street without thinking about it. It’s very rewarding when I’m with others and they have to put their feet down.

But when I go back to the range I can’t say I get it right 100% of the time. I almost have to warm up to it. It’s definitely all my head though.

[eon]

Well, all my road trips seem to be getting canceled due to lack of money, time or both! I was really bummed to miss out on a week long tour of Oregon. I have the GPS route of this organized tour since I had already paid for it, but I just couldn’t take the time off. Maybe next summer I will get to do it. Meanwhile I have been getting in long day trips and occasional over nighters. Trying to chalk off as many of the ‘must do’ rides as I can this summer. Last year I just couldn’t find the time to do anything.

I’m planning on doing a long day trip around south Vancouver Island very soon. That looks like it could be fun. Also want to do an overnight trip around Whistler to Lilooet (or something like that) then back home. Want to do both these trips within the next 4 weeks. But then in September I am doing a 5 day tour of the Scottish Highlands with two of my brothers and a nephew. That is going to be so much fun (though probably pretty wet).

Try looking at meetup.com for motorcycle groups in your area. I’ve made so many great friends though that here. It’s a bit hit and miss as obviously you get all types going along but after awhile you will find a small group that has similar riding tastes to you that you get along with. Then you start to branch off and do rides with just them. If there are none in your area you could try starting one. You might be surprised how many people are in the same boat as you.

[eon]

Don’t be jealous, you live here to! Get out that old Ninja of yours and get out there

[eon]

Any crash on a bike is going to have more serious consequences than in a car, just no arguing that one. The flip side of that is stripped of your protective cage (with airbags, traction control, ABS blah blah blah) you much more involved with the ride and in tune with the traffic while on a bike. I have no doubt I am less likely to have a crash on my bike than I am in a car for those reasons and the fact I have increased visibility and increased mobility. With practice, you learn to read the road and the traffic flow and see and avoid situations before they even develop. These are skills car drivers should be taught as well but we all know that is not going to happen. So meanwhile you have to take responsibility for their mistakes and make sure you don’t get caught out by them. Cause if you do, you are the one who is going to pay.

Other than traffic incidents, the other major cause of bike crashes is failing to take a corner. Lots of reasons for this but it boils down to simple rider error. Take plenty of training and avoid riding outside your limits and you should be fine.

So is it dangerous? Yes.
Can the risks be managed? Yes.

A lot of the headlines are grabbed by the 40 something year old on a cruiser failing to take a corner, or a 20 year old sport bike idiot doing wheelies down the interstate. Avoid falling into those two categories and you already have a good start

[eon]

It sounds like you were pretty hard on yourself for not picking things up quickly and I wonder if this contributed to your downfall. I know because I have a tendency to be like that myself. I had to remind myself that nothing depended on me passing the test and that I was there to have to have fun. That seemed to make things go easier for me. But trying to coordinate all four limbs at once did not come easy or naturally.

I expect you are very disappointed just now but maybe after a few days you will take time to reconsider giving it a second go. I have read more than one account of people in your situation (dropping the bike, being asked to leave etc) having a second go and acing next time around. You might be one of those, or it might be this is just not for you. Only you will know but at the very least you gave it a go. Plenty of people don’t even go that far.

Oh, and I will echo the folks above who mentioned starting out on a scooter as an option as maxi-scoots are anything but wimpy. The T-Max has the looks of a sport bike, the Burgman is a credible alternative to Gold Wings and my own MP3 is just, well different. I will be posting a ride report soon over in the Pictures forum. Look out for it to see what fun you can have on a scooter.

[eon]

And here is an alternative thought.
http://soundrider.com/current/jun10/DP1006-breaking_in_the_new_bike.htm

There are two schools of thought on this, the “ride it like you stole it” camp and the nice-n-easy camp. Which one is right I have no idea but it seems to generate some passion among those who do (or think they do).

[Author]

Posts