Bike Brands for Newbie Gear
Do you guys have any general recommendations for beginner gear? I found a good list of places online that have deals in one of the other threads, so the plan is to go to the store, try it on, then buy online. But what brands are quality, which are cheap, and which are good for beginners? I've never heard of any of them!
I'm 6'2" with large hands and feet (12.5 shoe) and I wear glasses if that makes any difference for the helmet.
I need a DOT approved helmet, long sleeved jacket, long pants, leather boots over the ankle
I'm 6'0" and I like Joe
I'm 6'0" and I like Joe Rocket for gloves and jackets. Not too expensive and they fit great. I usually get my gear at a local shop but I also go online through Kneegraggers.com
As for helmets I'm partial towards HJC. Again, affordable and they fit great.
While Icon makes some nice gear, their sizing sucks. It tends to run too small. Happy riding
Joe Rocket
Their gear is not the absolute highest quality and won't last forever, but the price is right and it WILL protect you. One unique thing about their jackets is that other brands don't offer is a lot more adjustment, enough to allow the jacket to grow or shrink a LOT if you happen to gain or lose weight. I bought a Joe Rocket Atomic 3.0 textile jacket (their lowest-end textile jacket--currently on sale at newenough.com for like $70.00) as my first riding jacket. I didn't want to spend a lot of money because I was planning on losing weight which meant going down a size. At the time I weighed a whopping 335 lbs and the jacked fit me ike a glove with all of the adjustments on max. I still have that jacket today despite the fact that it has protected me through two low speed crashes and it is still in remarkably good shape overall. The best part however is that despite the fact that I have lost 60 pounds since then, the jacket with all its adjustments tightened up STILL fits me well (although I am now getting to the point where it's starting to get too big for me even with adjustments tightened up).
All Joe Rocket gear is built with lots of adjustment and lots of ventilation in mind. With the vents on that jacket opened up I can ride comfortably in temperatures exceeding 90 degrees.
That being said, they won't last forever. They use cheap zippers and the stitching is, lets just say, far from premium. But they are the best in entry level gear.
Also, ICON, a higher-end gear manufacturer who makes gear specifically for the street rider, has a textile jacket called the Merc textile jacket currently on closeout for like $85.00 from virtually any online gear retailer. It doesn't have the versatility or adjustability of the Joe Rocket jackets but it's far better where raw safety is concerned.
For helmets I would go with a Scorpion EXO-700. If you're anything like most beginners then you probably can't afford to spend more than $200 or so on a helmet (although if you can, that's great) and the Scorpion EXO-700 is THE best helmet in the under $200 price range. HJC and KBC (the other two major budget helmet brands) don't even come close in quality to the Scorpion helmet line.
My recommendation if you're on a budget:
Joe Rocket Atomic 3.0 or ICON Merc textile jacket (both under $100 currently on sale). OR if you are willing and able to spend more, newenough.com and sportbiketrackgear.com has some nice Scorpion LEATHER riding jackets on sale for just a bit over $150.00. The Stinger and All-In specifically.
Scorpion EXO-700 helmet (roughly $200.00 or less if you get one of the color patterns currently on sale from sportbiketrackgear.com)
You can find good quality gloves from any reputable manufacturer on sale for undr $50.00 if you know where to look. Newenough.com has some nice Joe Rocket warm-weather riding gloves with knuckle protection on sale for less than $20.00.
Footwear won't be as easy because whenever they go on sale, the 'common' sizes sell out REAL quick. You can expect to pay anywhere from $90.00 to $150.00 for a decent pair of riding boots if your shoe size is anywhere from 9-13 US (the common sizes) because you'll never find sale items anywhere in that size range. I personally use Tourmaster Solution WP waterproof boots (roughly $130.00) but I have found that when it comes to footwear, anything that's waterproof will roast you in hot weather. It's best to forego waterproofing for ventilation if you ride mostly in temperature exceeding 85 degrees. Personally i feel that the ICON Field Armor boots (roughly $130.00) offer the highest degree of protection and all-day comfort for the price. Sportbiketrackgear.com has some Teknic boots for pretty cheap too, with the Violator boots (roughly $180.00) being probably the best deal in riding footwear going right now.
Finally we have leg protection. Let's face it. If you're a street rider and you ride often, then buying dedicated riding pants which you only own one pair of is not the most practical solution, although it is the safest. A good compromise would be to buy leg armor such as the Icon Field Armor leg armor or the Alpinestars leg armor and wear it under your jeans. You won't QUITE have the same degree of protection as you would with dedicated riding pants, but it's a good compromise between protection, affordability, and practicality.
No such thing as "beginner gear".
But... I see that what you're listing there are generally the requirements for the MSF basic class. That's pretty much all they require, as your max speed in any drill is 20mph, and most of the time a fair bit less. The long-sleeved jacket required for the class is NOT defined as an armored motorcycle jacket (same with the pants). They just want your skin covered with SOMEthing.
But when you get out on the street, wear full gear.
don't be afraid to buy from
don't be afraid to buy from the local shop, it helps keep them in business and you never know when you might need them
--/\-[ Stu ]-/\--
I do buy from the local shop
I do buy from the local shop when I'm in a pinch, but the problem is that dealers often charge 30% or MORE than online retailers or even Cycle Gear. The day after I bought my Joe Rocket Atomic 3.0 jacket from a local dealer for $180 I looked online and saw that it sells for only $120.00. That feeling of knowing I paid too much for it SUCKED.
Agree w/Everyone Else
For the MSF, they just want exposed skin covered, mostly for liability reasons. Speeds are pretty low, so a fall won't USUALLY seriously hurt you (though it DOES happen...I'm sure Allen has some stories that will shock/dismay us).
But for the real world, you need real protection.
Fortunately, as Briderdt says, there's no such thing as beginner gear...provided you keep certain things in mind, most name-brand, made-for-motorcycling gear is a good choice for ANY rider.
Some basic, overall hints (others have covered the details very well so far):
Helmets: Recommend full-face, and don't buy anything that isn't DOT rated at the least. Always buy new, never used.
Jackets: Look for jackets with internal amor, preferrably CE rated. Textile is good, leather is better.
Pants: A good solution for everyday riding is to buy overpants that you can wear over your regular pants.
Gloves: All leather is the best choice.
Boots: Look for boots that have internal protection for your ankle. Most motorcycle-specific boots will.
Best brands for beginners
I'd wager that you'll find proponents of nearly every brand carried by the big MC web sites. A lot will have as much to do with fit and style, as anything else. There are some brands that are higher end (Aerostitch, Shoei, Olympia, maybe Alpinestars). Then there are value leaders. like First and some of no-names on LeatherUp.
I'd recommend ignoring the brand until you find one that fits, and instead focus on how it feels when you try it on, how it fits you, and whether it's something comfortable enough so that you will wear it ALL the time.
Ultimately, an $80 jacket you wear for every ride is much better than a $500 one that sits at home. Of course if the luxury label inspires you to wear it and show it off, then the example will be reversed.
Really good advice here, for
Really good advice here, for sure. There is no such thing as beginner gear. While I understand that gear is expensive, and you may or may not become addicted to motorcycling like many here, you really DO want to invest in good, comfortable gear AND WEAR IT!!!
JackTrade; every now and again, you see some pretty wacky stuff! Weirdest was a woman coming into the braking zone on the test...she started screaming and pulled her hands off the bars to cover her eyes as she comleted a spectacular low side. I saw it unfolding...I was of course powerless to do anything. Bike and rider survived with no damage.
She failed.
";-o>
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
There is no such thing as "Beginner" gear
But if you're anything like I was, and like almost everyone I know was, you didn't have much left over after buying the bike itself and the helmet to invest in top of the line gear, and you probably don't have the patience to save up for it either knowing you have a perfectly good, ridable bike in the garage/driveway. That will only encourage you to ride without gear at all. That being said, there IS such a thing as "entry level" gear for people who want the basic protection necessary to learn in safety but don't want to invest lots of money into gear before they truly know whether or not riding is for them. It is for those people, and for the people who don't have much left over after buying the bike, that I put my list together for. it sure beats the hell out of riding without any gear at all which is exactly what will happen if you try to hold off on buying the gear until you have enough money for the *good* stuff.
The basics are: A DOT/ECE approved full-face helmet (I still say Scorpion is the best in the entry level price range), an affordable textile jacket (leather is better but if you're considering leather, stick to what's on sale/closeout at this point), gloves with knuckle protection, leg armor or overpants, and boots.
I agree.
I wasn't saying that "there's no such thing as beginner gear" to say that you had to spend a lot of money to protect yourself -- far from it. I got head-to-toe protection for less than $250, and none of it was used. Shop the closeouts and online (though the helmet may be a sticking point for that). Newenough.com, Leatherup.com, MotorcycleSuperstore.com, ComptetitionAccessories.com... all good places to check.
I agree with everything WZ
I agree with everything WZ says (part from the part about gloves needing knuckle protection). Buy what you can afford and upgrade as you go along. But don't spend all your money on the bike and leave nothing for gear.
About those gloves, my Steve Held gloves are considered to be in the high end bracket but do not have knuckle protection, or at least hard protection. Plenty of touring gloves do not have the hard parts on the back. Does this sacrifice protection for comfort? I don't think so, or at least not significantly.
Glove armor vs. elbow/hip/knee armor
My theory on glove protection is that hands and fingers are "soft parts" that are knocked out of the way upon impact, so soft armor is enough to cushion the initial impact and protect againt the subsequent light abrasion force. On the other hand, "hard parts / pivot joints" such as elbows/hips/knees tend to stay in place and grind against pavement, so hard armor is needed for heavy abrasion force.
Never thought of it that way
Never thought of it that way before but it sounds about right, though I would replace "abrasion" with "impact" in most of what you said. I think hard parts (with padding) do a great job of spreading the initial impact across a wider area. Areas like your knees, elbows and shoulders are going to hit hard with a lot of weight behind them. Just can't see that scenario with the back of your hand (unless your bike falls on you). More important for gloves is abrasion resistance. I can easily see a situation where your hands are palm down sliding down the road. In that case you want gloves that are not going to come apart at the seams after 2 seconds.
Working with computers for a living my hands are important to me so my Steve Held gloves were actually part of my initial outfit. At around $170 they might have been the most expensive single item I bought. I shudder at the thought of wearing $25 gloves. I now have two other pairs of gloves that do have hard knuckle protection and while they help my fantasies of punching the cager who cuts me off, I don't think they offer much more in the way of crash protection.
Head on t-bone
One of the most common collisions is the bike that gets cut off by the car turning left in front of him/her. If you are unfortunate enough to not be able to stop or swerve, you're very likely going to still have your hands on the grips as you hit the side of that car. In that case, there's a decent chance your clenched hands will fly from the grips and your knuckes may be making contact with your mirrors and fairing/shield, possibly even with the offending car.
I'm not suggesting your Held gloves are lacking. And let's face it, you can't armor everything.
But even then the point is
But even then the point is you're not stiff-arming superman style so your hand/knuckle get knocked backward which cushions the impact. Like eon wrote (he said it better than I did) there is generally no weight behind the hand/knuckle. I think this is why a lot of high-end gloves use soft armor (padding) in the knuckle area, even though they're at a price point where they could use hard armor if they needed to. You're more likely to have broken wrists than knuckles. in a head-on or T-bone your head/shoulder are likely to take the brunt of the impact.
Crystal ball murky
I think you're banking alot on your ability to predict points of impact and whether or not your body will be relaxed enough to lessen any impact.
As for what high end manufacturers choose to make, it's likely as predicated on their customers wanting to be able to tuck their gloves into a jacket pocket (so, no hard armor) as it is on crash testing.
I've yet to see any solid research showing how different types of gear save life/limb in real crashes, so your guess is as good as anyone's. My guess is different, so that's what I'll use to inform my choice of gear.
oh yeah since every accident
oh yeah since every accident is different I don't think there one universally correct answer. I don't have anything against having hard knuckle armors - 3 of my 4 gloves have them, but not for the most expensive pair (Helimot Buffalo Pro 360) - so I'm only trying to discuss the "possible" theory behind the different armor design philosophy.
Tourmaster/Cortech make
Tourmaster/Cortech make decent gear for good prices.
HJC make highly rated (DoT & Snell) inexpensive helmets; look for a CL-15 on close-out.
Gloves? I've had two unscheduled get-offs. On the first, the hard knuckle protector on my gloves was dented leaving my own knuckle unharmed. On the second, I was wearing Winter Gloves with no hard armour and injured my finger. I'd go with the hard armour.
The reason I recomend gloves
The reason I recomend gloves with kuckle protectors is because I've heard numerous stories from people who said their knuckles were caught under the bike handlebars in an unscheduled getoff.
Don't kid yourself
Like you, Eon, I'm both a tech guy and an avid musician. Losing use of a hand or some fingers would ruin me.
Hand injuries are very common, and I'm totally on board with WeaponZero on this one. Every racer out there has a broken pinky finger (easily avoided by a joined ring/pinky glove...though some people don't like the feel of that) and broken metacarpals (knuckle/palm armor). That's why these days they build gloves like this:
To be fair, I'm not sure if you're less likely to injure these parts if you're on the street (as opposed to the track), but I don't know of any hard statistics that suggest they should be different.
hard-shell vs. soft
What's interesting is when it comes to back protector, I'd choose the hard-shell Dainese type over the soft T-Pro Forcefield type. I figure if I slid and hit a rock or the curb with my back, I'd want a hardshell back protector to spread out the "point" impact force. That's a different consideration from glove armoring where I'm ok with soft armor (usually a combo of hi-density foam padding and an extra layer of leather).
In the instant before a crash
In the instant before a crash if I could choose to have hard parts on the back of my glove I would do so. I just don't think it's the most important feature on a glove, especially if you are on a budget and have to pick and choose between features. I am much more concerned about the overall quality of the glove. I have not heard stories about hands getting crushed but have heard stories about gloves shredding (and seen the pictures), so that's why I've avoided the cheaper gloves. A high end sports glove (like those Held gloves pictured by eternal) are going to have all the bells and whistles but probably have a price to match.
One of my other pair of gloves, RevIts Airvolution, is described as a summer sports glove.
The cut is much tighter than the Held and my thumb is severely restricted in its movement. I imagine this would help prevent injuries in a crash but it puts a strain on my thumb as I try to operate the controls and switches. If I'm going to be in the saddle for more than a few hours this can be important. Just saying not all gloves have the same goals.
I love Held Gloves...
.... the fit and finish is amazing, but unfortunately they have a price tag to match. I do own one pair, the Steve Glove. That glove is considered a touring glove. It doesn't have the carbon protection, but is made from Kangaroo palms (stronger than leather), and has kevlar and foam protection throughout as well as rivets in the palm area that are supposed to prevent friction and shredding in a slide. Knock on wood I have never had to test them.
Some nice protection for the $$ my IMHO is the British Motorcycle Gear products. Despite the name they are a San Diego based company. I came upon them at a show and have purchased a few items from them. The Montana Jacket, as well as both the ThermoSport Winter Glove and Rapido Summer Glove. These things are well made with carbon, kevlar and keprotec reinforcements all over the fingers, hands, thumbs, palms, etc. They come at a "reasonable" price of $79. Yes, there are cheaper gloves out there, but I haven't found any that offer that level of protection for that price. Held Gloves, by comparison, start at around $150 and go north of there into the $300's.
BMG Rapido Glove - http://www.britishmotorcyclegear.com/rapido-gloves.asp
If you ride like there's no tomorrow, there won't be. ~Author Unknown
Just bought BMG ThermoSport gloves the other day
This is kinda timely for me as I just spent the last few days on the internet and at my local dealers evaluating Winter motorcycle gloves. I bought the Cortech Scarab Winter Gloves which seemed to fit great in the store, but on riding home in them I discovered that the fit didn't work for me once my hands were on the bars for an extended period.
Anyway, I returned those to the dealer and ended up ordering the British Motorcycle Gear ThermoSports Winter Gloves. Whereas most of the other Winter Gloves I looked at had some of the features I wanted, the ThermoSports seem to offer all of the qualities I was looking for; and at a "reasonable" price.
As the entire BMG staff was at the Daytona Bike Week Races last week, I haven't received the gloves yet, so the jury's still out on them.
http://www.britishmotorcyclegear.com/thermosport-gloves.asp
BMG seems to have great customer service..
... they reply quickly, if you have questions about fit they will answer them, if the size is still wrong they will exchange them. They seem to be a really nice company from my experiences with them. Luckily they shipped my jacket right before Bike Week so I received that two days ago :)
I did the bucket test with my Thermosports and submerged them almost to the top of the cuff for about 10 minutes and they both passed (more than I can say about a pair of "Waterproof Joe Rocket Gloves I have), but I understand if for some reason one or both doesn't they do warrant them to be waterproof.
If you ride like there's no tomorrow, there won't be. ~Author Unknown
I have the same gloves
I bought a pair of BMG ThermoSport (about $100), and then Cycle Gear had a 30% NewYearDay sale so I bought a pair of Cortech Scarab gloves (about $60 after discount). Got them mainly for their water proof capability for rain rides.
These two pair of gloves look very similar to me (until I put them side-by-side). The ThermoSport has thicker insulation -> bulkier, less feeling. The Scarab has thinner insulation -> less bulky, more feeling. It doesn't get that cold here in the SF Bay Area, so I ended up wearing the less bulky Scarab more than the ThermoSport.
Although the ThermoSport is bulkier, it doesn't seem "obviously warmer" than the Scarab. On a cold morning, my finger tips would still get pretty cold after a 20 min freeway commute.
Thanks for the comparo
Thanks for the comparo but like I said, the fit of the Scarab (glove thumbs too short when gripping the grips) just wouldn't work for me and I don't think a bigger size (than large) would have helped as then they would have been too loose.
Like you, one of my main criteria in selecting these was waterproofness as well as hard armor and a wrist closure that hopefully tightens around my wrist. Some gloves have a wrist closure but not enough velcro to tighten them up sufficiently (like my current Olympia Ultimas).
Re. the temperature in the SF Bay area there are times in the year when on my morning high-speed commute I need both grip heaters and heated gloves together to prevent frostbite turning my fingers black (okay, I exaggerate a little). I don't think there are any non-heated gloves on the market that will truly keep your hands warm at low temps for any length of time, so I'm hoping that the ThermoSport together with my heated grips will cover most situations. My heated gloves (Firstgear Carbon) are a pain in the proverbial to plug-in and out; especially if you want to change jackets and have to move the jacket wiring harness.