Eon, I keep near-running into you
I saw you ride by just as you were leaving the parking lot at magnuson with the big PNWRiders group. I was busy setting up an autocross course with my girlfriend. I was teaching her basic driving (i.e., not how to drive (she's been driving since 16), but how to drive ^_^) and then we time-trial raced around it, me on my DR-Z and the lady in her car.
How was the PNW meet-up? What was it for? Don't really check the event schedule over there as much as I should. Anyway, one of these days maybe I'll actually run into you ;)
Last Straw
Okay guys, it is time to get you both down at the same table. NO ARGUMENTS!
I'll be in town April 2 through April 5. My preference is for the 5th, but, hey, its my vacation, I'm flexible.
See y'all soon,
Owlie
Dammit, I wish I had known
Dammit, I wish I had known that was you. When I saw that course set out I almost had a spin around it till I saw the car sitting there. That looked like a lot of fun but it must have taken you forever to set it up. Next time you do that give me a shout and I will be there to help out and share in the fun.
It wasn't a PNW group. I rarely visit that site as most of the conversation seems to be at the teenage boy level. There were 8 or so sportbike guys there who may have been from PNW. They were practicing their wheelies and stoppies but they were pretty responsible and pretty cool. Certainly had some impressive leathers on.
No, it was a Meetup Group get together to practice basic riding techniques. Think we had over 30 bikes show up which was pretty impressive turn out for some parking lot practice. I was expecting some god awful riding on show but it was not as bad as I had feared. Some people need to make this a more regular part of their riding routine. I was given a hard time as I had an unfair advantage on my scooter. Not having to worry about friction zone makes things easier and I could have done these exercises with my eyes closed, but I only got their with many hours of practice.
Here is a video I put together of the day.
The one disadvantage of making videos is that you don't get to be in them
So here is a gratuitous shot of me showing how it should be done :)
edit: Owlie, April 5th works for me.
Watching that video at the
Watching that video at the end I would have been sure you were here in NC. Other then the mountain shots you get over there, theres not much difference.
Looks like fun to have a group like that to work PLP with. Wish I could spend some doing it myself. The most practice I get is slow race on a high bank turn when traffic slows. Though I can still bang a U-ey in the space of the width of my driveway so for now I will call it good.
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
Haha will do!
It did take a while to set up, but not because of laying down cones. The thing that took longest was trying to come up with a variety of different corners (constant/increasing/decreasing radius turns, big sweepers, hairpins, etc.) and then making them flow together and fit the parking lot. The first course I made was so tight that even her tiny sport hatchback couldn't make some of the turns.
Anyway, I'll be sure to invite you out one of these weekends for some fun!
I totally agree about PNWRiders. I think I still have a single-digit post count over there...most threads are just silly. In fact, even the threads I have posted in are just silly. Glad to know those sportbikers weren't giving us too bad a name ;)
As a side note, how ridiculous was that chopper? Despite having bright cones set up, EVERYBODY drove right through the course, even when our car was peeling through it. The chopper even tried to follow the course a bit, but hit the first hairpin and gave up! Choppers with that kind of fork rake are a rare beast in Seattle.
The guy with the chopper is
The guy with the chopper is actually a pretty good rider. Apparently he took the Police Riders course. Not sure what course this is exactly but you take it on supplied Harley. Costs close to a grand for a one day course so not many people take it!
Course this guy has more money than sense. He has a Harley bagger (whatever that is) that he has spent $56k on. Amazing paint jobs on his bikes and all kinds of special clutches and what not. Shudder to think what that chopper cost. He also recently bought a Hayabusa that he is going to chop and drop ~$24k on a paint job and take to shows. I think I took the wrong career choice somewhere along the line.
From my one weekend trip to
From my one weekend trip to NC I would say yes, they are pretty similar. Yes we have higher mountains here but you can't ride up them! Riding the foothills of them is a lot like I remember NC to be.
This was only the 2nd time this group has had a PLP session. We watched Ride Like A Pro and then hit the practice range. To be honest there were slightly too many people there or at least, we needed to be better organized. A lot of time was spent waiting your turn. Could've/should've set up at least two lines for each exercise but on the whole it went smoothly.
One of the guys set up an 18ft circle and I wish someone had videoed me going round that. I could do it with a couple of feet to spare and do it real slow. Would like to have seen what that looked like.
There are several places
There are several places where you could go to get some course layout ideas. Lee Park's book has some, and you might be able to find some MotorCop exercises online. The slow stuff that motorcops do is REALLY challenging if you're not used it, but it develops great skills that apply across spectrum of riding.
And just a suggestion...why the name of beer and all that's holy are riders allowed to participate sans a helmet? What's worse, what's up with the mental giant riding a course with her helmet protecting her sissy bar?!?!? That could turn embarrasement or at worst a broken collarbone into a coma or death, right there in the parking at 3MPH!
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
I agree with you but in case
I agree with you but in case it wasn't clear this was just an informal get together, not an organized course. This group is 95%+ cruiser riders and without passing judgment we all know what that means when it comes to gear. A situation not helped IMO by Ride Like A Pro where t-shirts and fingerless gloves are the norm. But if you are barely in control of your bike (like that woman was) and you choose to wear a cowboy hat while leaving your helmet on your sissy bar, well I'm not sure what to say. I make my choices and I let others make theirs but don't expect me to cry at your funeral. If I was responsible in any way for their safety (or if I had been one of the organizers) then I would have insisted on helmet use at all times.
Slightly different topic but I also have a different philosophy when it comes to group riding. This group insists on riding like a pack and is terrified of the group being split. This means they ride in tight parade formation (even at speed) and use blockers at junctions, all stuff that I hate. I consider that riding dangerous and want no part of it. If you notice in the video I am way off the back and don't mind when a car gets between me and them. I ride as an individual, not as part of a collective, but I don't think they are unique in the way they ride. I've seen those guidelines published in many websites. I consider that at least as dangerous, if not more so, than riding in a parking lot without a helmet.
I'll get off my soapbox now :)
I guess I'm just paranoid
I guess I'm just paranoid because I've been around things like this when someone falls and then they're forced to lawyer up by their insurance agency. Not sure how it works out there, but here it's illegal to conduct a class that hasn't been approved by the state. I have no idea how they decide what a "class" is, but I don't want to be on video teaching anyone anything and have them fall and crack their skull...
I'm with you on group riding. I get asked at least once a class about group riding. As it's part of what we instruct (and the state tests on it) I stick with what "the cards" say. When a student asks me away from the group? Oh, hell no! Don't do it! And if you do, make sure you're at THE BACK of the line.
I get a bang out of group riders and seperation. It's almost like you're traveling in a foreign country and have to be off the road by dark...and if you get lost, you're a goner! The argument is that the group is safer together (fat chance) and can respond to an emergency should one arise...ask anybody in most groups if anyone has even the most basic of first aid or CPR training...;-)
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
"The argument is that the
"The argument is that the group is safer together fat chance) and can respond to an emergency should one arise"
This is in the idea of making yourself more visible. Meaning not a singal point on a larger road that gets obscured... or a non threatening object like an article someone here had pointed out stated. Not all groups, actually few that I know of, ride in parade formation at a constant. There are reasons there is a basic hand signal platform for any rider to know if they ride with groups. Most will recommend you keep a 2 to 3 second rule for either the bike immediately in front of you or stagger stepped to your side. 1 Bike can easily be overlooked, 3 on up is hard to miss.
"can respond to an emergency should one arise."
Your assuming that all emergencies are of the medical type. If there should be one however would you rather someone 3 miles around the blind curve you just wiped on not be able to see you and call for any emergency assistance you may need , even IF they don't know CPR....or take your chances bleeding out waiting for the next passer by to hopefully see you?
I don't want to see any one riding in any circumstance they don't like or feel comfortable in. It's all in the risk management as you state yourself. However look through all possibilities before blasting certain things from a tunnel vision PoV. Granted that guy/gal may not be medicaly certified...but chances are (especially these days) they have a cell phone. You slide down an embankment and no one can see you but the rider in front or behind you at a closer clip ..... who's your sudden best friend?
If you don't feel comfortable in a parade type riding situation ...say so... they blast you for it, separate and go about it your own way "Ride your own ride".
However most groups I have ridden with give plenty of options for everyone in the group and take consensus of opinions on the pace, structure and destination before kick stand up. If not..... need to find you another ride captain.
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
Don't mean to turn this into
Don't mean to turn this into a pissing contest as to what type of riding style is 'better'. Hopefully we can discuss this without it getting too heated.
I agree with you that more riders equals more visibility but for me that is offset by worrying about the guy behind me. Someone 1 second to my side is not enough room for me to very comfortable, especially if I don't know what level their riding ability is. Would you like that woman in the hat 1 second behind you on the road? It would make me nervous.
Aside from safety it reduces my fun as even in the roads at the end of the video the group is riding in staggered formation. I would drop off a little and then catch them easily (and I am not a fast rider) as I used all of the lane in the corners. If I have to go round a corner as if following a rail then I am not having any fun. This problem is exaggerated by putting the slowest riders at the front (MSF recommend advice I believe) which means everyone goes at the speed of the slowest rider. It's just not a style for me and my rides with this group will be less frequent during the summer months as the group size swells.
Sorry ...didn't mean to make
Sorry ...didn't mean to make it sound like a pissing contest. Just a little to straight forward I guess. I understand to each their own as far as riding, and to that the freedom of decision if you ride with a particular group. Would I feel comfy with that woman in that hat beside me..... not judging from her slow crawl, at which point I tell them that I am gonna do something different then the group and maybe catch up with them on the other side.
I ride some what tight with people I know.... others I don't .... well like you I drop back quite a bit until I can grasp what their skills are.
Didn't mean to come off as an ass just merely wanting to point out that not all answers are one sided .... honestly I think it was something that IBA said. Eh...maybe a nerve got touched and I typed before realizing it. Oh well....no harm meant... just devils advocate (with apparent passion)
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
LOL...no worries. I could
LOL...no worries. I could tell you were going to defend your corner vigerously. Just wanted to make sure I had not upset you with something I said. I tend to do that on occasion on other forums by mistake. Don't want to do that here.
I need to clarify just a
I need to clarify just a little...I'm not against helping people hone their skills at all! I'm only suggesting that folks be smart about it and be sure to ENCOURAGE everyone to be safe. If it were me personally, I'd politely let it be known that I don't like to be around folks who don't take safety seriously...
And then I'd give them the parking lot test....:-)
"You may ride with me at anytime (provided I have a motorcycle suitable for two-up riding) in any gear (no gear if) you wish, provided you adhere to two things; 1) You must be comfortable running as fast as you can, and then dive head first into a curb, baseball style in whatever you intend to ride in. 2) I reserve the right to ask you to do perform this readiness test at anytime I think you're improperly attired."
I never have an argument.
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
HA! I love it.
"I never have an argument."
Yeah, this is a common test, and a great one. But to each their own...just not in my group ride ;)
I can see if money changes
I can see if money changes hands it would need State approval but it’s hard to legislate against giving/taking advice from a friend. But I agree I would not want to be on video giving advice to someone who then falls over and gets hurt. Damn lawyers!
But group riding can be fun. Some of my best rides have been group rides. There is a local motorcycle website here that organizes occasional rides and they have been a blast. Got to have lunch and ride with David Hough so you can imagine safety is paramount. You gotta have full gear (including boots and pants) and you essentially ride individually. The guy in front will wait for you at an intersection so you know which way to go and you wait for the guy behind you. Not exactly rocket science.
Since we are talking about safe riding, I’ve been meaning ask you about Iron Butt rides. I am surprised to see you promote them as they seem inherently unsafe to me. The whole idea of setting yourself an artificial deadline that forces you to ride at night while fatigued on unfamiliar roads in all kinds of weather just so you can get a ‘certificate’ and join an ‘exclusive’ club seems bizarre to me. Everyone I know who has done it talks about riding through a mental fog. Normally you would pull over and rest but instead you press on as that is the ‘challenge’.
Maybe I am missing something but it just seems unsafe to me and anything but fun.
Iron Butt Rides...
Ah yes...the question of safety. Well, it's a great question and one that should be asked. I'm not sure if you have the last two issues of MCN, but an individual wrote into the magazine complaining about the coverage of the Iron Butt Rally as it surely must be unsafe as three people have died in the event since it's inception. I wrote a rebutal letter that was published that refutted the original authors claims. Catch those if you can because I think the questions were intellegently posed and I hope my answers were as well!
The safety issue with the IBA and most definately the rally comes down to a very few simple principles; preparedness and personal responsibility. I think personal responsibility is an absolute; riders need to decide what their risk tolerance is, their individual limits, their level of preperation...and they need to weighed against the goal of that ride. There's no question that you'll read stories about "the fog" and maybe even a little bravado with speed and stories of mayhem experienced along the way. At the end of the day, EVERY rider is accountable to his/herself and their families. A pretty good comparison is to SCUBA divers (which I am a divemaster) or mountain climbers (which I did once...oh my God why did I do that?) There are varying limits of risk/reward...every diver and climber must assume those risks, but each is usually well prepared and incidents are rare.
This is true with the IBR as well. The safety record is remarkable by any measurement. In the history of the event, there has been one rally related death, which occured in this year's addition of the rally. It was a tragic event, and our community is still realing from it. But consider that the event has taken place 12 times since it's inception in 1984. In the modern history of the rally ('95-present) roughly 100 competitors start the rally with the average mileage around 10K over 11 days. Total mileage, per rally, is between 700K and 900K. If you take the smaller number, that's 5.6 MILLION MILES....with one death. Yes, there have been some tragic accidents with serious injuries. It's a small percentage that I don't have a figure for, but again, by any measurement, that's a pretty impressive saftety number.
For people who ride distances on a regular basis, 1000 miles in a day is not that big of a deal...an experienced and prepared rider should cover that distance in about 15 to 16 hours without much trouble. I know that sounds odd, but it really does come down to preparation and experience. Once you've done it, you understand what it takes and with each ride, it's an easier ride.
Eon, it's a good question and I appreciate you asking it. The IBA and rides certainly aren't for everyone. It's doesn't mean that the riders are superior (believe me, there are some REAL knuckle heads that have a plate backer) or are any smarter. It just means they enjoy different challenges on a bike. Nothing more, nothing less.
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
On state approval...
You may be perfectly fine! Every state is different. Texas doesn't police that stuff much, and technically, even track day instruction is supposed to be state approved, but none are.
I'm not poo poo'n, just saying please be careful. My best friend is an attorney...but...subjegation is a bitch!
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
Thanks for the info on the
Thanks for the info on the IBA. I have to confess I don't know a whole lot about it, just that some friends have done the 24 hour / 1000 mile thing. They were the ones talking about riding while tired and foggy. I also read reports on perhaps the initial one back in the day? Somewhere in NZ I think. Or maybe it was just the first one in NZ. They were talking about riding unfamiliar mountainous roads at night in bad weather while feeling this numbness (in the brain, not the butt!). While there were no deaths it seemed like playing Russian Roulette to me. I had no idea people were doing 10k miles in 11 days. That's insane.
I heartily agree with preparation and experience making distance riding easier, whether you are doing 1000 or 500 miles a day. I've only done about 400 so far so I have a ways to go but I got all kinds of weather that day, from 90'+ temps to freezing rain in the mountains. Thankfully I had the proper gear and I enjoyed both extremes.
As far as the liability with training goes, I do not feel qualified to be giving advice to anyone so I'm not worried on a personal level, but I will mention your concerns to those who organized this in case there is another one.
Group Riding
I know many, many people enjoy it and I think it's great. It's just not my style, and it certainly can be dangerous due to circumstances beyond the individual's control. Off the top of my head, I can think of no less than 7 group riding incidents that I have a personal stake in. One is a fatality, and another was by a very close family friend that left him with debilitating injuries and eventually led to financial ruin. Two other incidents resulted in a serious injury to a rider's wife, and yet another (and the last example) led to riders totally leaving the sport.
On emergencies...is there a type other than a medical? Well, ok...we've all had bbq that didn't sit right...;-)
My point simply is; there isn't neccesarily safety in numbers, and many riders, especially new riders, get the impression that there is...
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
no not all emergencies are
no not all emergencies are medical..... again not trying to come off strong...
2 situations I can think of that I know of with friends. 1 was with a friend following me on back roads. Now he doesn't have the back road time that I do and I took lead... he stayed about 3 seconds behind me still staggered formation for, well, just in case. I was on the inside of the turn going left and he was on the outside. Not sure what really happened with him, wether itwas lack of attention or looking and going where he was looking... I saw in my mirror he was taking the turn.......looked up to finish the turn and as I was exiting it I looked back real quick in the mirror again to see him jump the ditch and very wobbly run into a horse pasture. Luckily he didn't go downbut had he it would have been not so good, not necessarily medically but him being shook up about the event would have put him in a bad place to contnue on or if the bike would have fallen on him...not hard enough to break anything but hot pipes on gear will go through eventually...would have needed quick help to get the bike up.
The other was my uncle....pushed his luck on gas and as he was cresting a hill the fuel went away from the pick up and the bike petered out near the top. He had enough speed to carry him off the road and as soon as he put the kick stand down........ down goes the bike.... the shoulder was very soft. Luckily there was a car not to far behind him.....maybe a 1/4 mile (it was a straight away) that witnessed what happened and was able to get the bike off him.
There is safety in numbers but too many numbers changes the game quickly into being bad. I agree with that. However I would hate to have a widespread group and arrive somewhere to find that amateur Jimmy was no where to be found and no one knew why.
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
You bet Eon! Look up the
You bet Eon! Look up the website and have a look around; www.ironbutt.com and www.ironbuttrally.com.
The rally came first as an 11 day event, and then morphed into the rally as it's known today. Basically, it's 1K/day for 11 days. A sizeable percentage attain what's known as the 10/10ths on the rally, which is 10 consecutive 1000 miles days. FWIW, I traveled 12,463 over the 11 days in 2005. Yes, I was sore...and had funny things growing on my body at the end (yuk!). The rally is a scavenger hunt with the idea of getting the most number of points in the most efficient manner possible. Top riders will travel anywhere from 12K to 13.5K+.
The saddlesore award (1000/24 or 1500/36) is minimum requirement for entry into the IBA. Other awards include 100CCC (Coast to Coast to Coast in under 100 hours) 50CC (Coast to Coast), awards for number of National Parks visited, saddlesores within cities/states, etc....you name, there's probably an award for it. Most importantly, and I'm sure it seems funny...is that it's done safely. It's hugely embarrasing to have an accident or to do something stupid in the quest for an award.
You may want to try sometime yourself! There's plenty of people around that would be happy to help you plan and document your paperwork for you if it's something you want to try!
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
Munch, I get it and I'm glad
Munch, I get it and I'm glad you dig doing that riding style. I have no issue with it, and I understand why it's popular. My only point is that while it's got it's obvious advantages, it's got it's disadvantages as well...In all my years of riding, I can count the number of people I will ride with on one hand. I don't consider myself better, not by any means, and I don't consider them "less" of a rider. I DO wonder about their judgement (did they top off the tank? Do I have to wait for them to gas/piss/take pictures/bullshit?) or if they think like I do when it comes to accident avoidance and judgement. For me, group riding doesn't work. As I feel like I have some responsbility, I grow tired of fixing poorly maintained bikes, helping people pick up dropped bikes, waiting in hospitals for crashed riders...I don't dig that. Maybe I've just had bad experiences...
But please, don't think I'm bashing it at all. I'm not. I only bash a very few things in motorcycling; Be prepared and wear your freakin' gear...don't be a dumbass statistic....get some training because your uncles' brother in law's ex-girl friend's lover can't ride for shit and sure as hell has no business teaching you, and don't EVER f'n tell me you had to "lay 'er down" to avoid an accident....that's like Mohomed Atta saying he had to hit the building because he didn't know how to land...passed that? It's all good!!!
Allen Dye
MSF Rider Coach
Track Day Instructor
Ironbutt Rally Finisher '03-'05
""I only bash a very few
""I only bash a very few things in motorcycling; Be prepared and wear your freakin' gear...don't be a dumbass statistic....get some training because your uncles' brother in law's ex-girl friend's lover can't ride for shit and sure as hell has no business teaching you, and don't EVER f'n tell me you had to "lay 'er down" to avoid an accident....that's like Mohomed Atta saying he had to hit the building because he didn't know how to land...passed that? It's all good!!!""
+1 mill and then some. We definitely agree on that. And yes for most cruiser groups we do like to stop , take pictures, bullshit, bio breaks and other sum such. If all I wanted to do was ride from point A to B in a timely fashion I can do that on my own by myself.....like my commute to and from work. However with a group of like minded individuals.....and thats key.....it's absolutely great to ride, stop and rest and BS for a little while to develop some memories and take pictures to share with the poor souls that didn't get to go. Otherwise, it's just a commute.... for me.
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
Well, haven't done a lot of
Well, haven't done a lot of group riding in general, ride out isnt bad, to much beer flowing for me to be around on the way back usually.
On the vid . . on that off set cone weave . .to slow. That is basically the one that taught me to drag pegs. Got to keep it moving on that one.
The chopper is nice, not big on the handling with those big ass rear tires or all that rake. Dont like being next to them on group rides. Oh, over 50K in a bagger? Way, way, way past stock.
Last, agreed. PLP still needs a lid if you are pushing enough to learn a darn thing. (-; Folks drop bikes when they push.
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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