Billy Lane
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20090609/BREAKINGNEWS/90609007/1006/...
http://www.choppersinc.com/html/billy.asp
Bike builder killed a biker. Looks like he'll get 9 for it.
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Reality check for someone who
Reality check for someone who thought he was larger than life
yea, I am the last person to
yea, I am the last person to pass judgment on anyone for bad habits in life. Name a rule, I have broken it. He had his warnings, but he wasn't ready to hear them yet . . thats booze. The only difference between me and him is I never got caught, we'll never got charged, and never hurt anybody. I was lucky. The only difference between me and the guy who has a bottle of wine at the steak house with his wife . .none. Same booze, different presentation. Same effect in the car. We live in a society where 90% of people drink. 99% of those I know drink and drive . . and none would "say" they do it drunk. They are in control. Yea, right. We point at this dude because he had a prior DUI and now has killed someone. But in the end . .it is the booze that does the killing, it is just a messed up man that puts that booze behind the wheel. Can happen to any of us in a moments bad judgment. Everyone who drinks has the same problem, they just are at varying degrees of moving DOWN. (-; Those that USED to drink have it figured out, control is an illusion. Took me more than 40 years to figure it out . .but now . .seems used to drink is what I will be before I am 50. (-; No other logical way to see drinking.
The truth is everyone who has even one drink and then gets in a car took the same risk, just at a "lesser degree". He isn't some evil man .. that booze will get any of us given a chance.
However . . . this is life, and none of that gives him a pass. He took a life. You don't get to go find religion and consider it a "lesson". If he gets ONLY 9 years, he is getting off pretty easy. The man he killed will be dead a lot longer than that. Even irresponsibility carries with it great responsibility. He killed a man, the price tag for that MUST be high. I preach freedom, not anarchy. (-;
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
+1 Good stuff Elwood
+1 Good stuff Elwood
I try not to spend time with
I try not to spend time with people who drive drunk. I almost got into a fight with someone who was about to drive drunk, but his girlfriend convinced him to stay. If that hadn't happened, it would have been a fight and I wouldn't have regretted it, even though he would have been pretty pissed.
There is no person in our society who doesn't understand the dangers of drinking and driving. And if a person is incapable of knowing whether or not they're too drunk to drive, then they have no business drinking. The penalties for drunk driving need to be much more severe, even if there's no wreck.
“”””There is no person in our
“”””There is no person in our society who doesn't understand the dangers of drinking and driving. And if a person is incapable of knowing whether or not they're too drunk to drive, then they have no business drinking. The penalties for drunk driving need to be much more severe, even if there's no wreck.””””
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have to say this paragraph tells me you know nothing about alcohol, how it works, or how society plays a roll in putting folks behind the wheel. From your parents to holly wood to our music . . we are programmed to see good drinking and bad drinking. Well, it is ALL drinking. (-;
You can put every DUI in jail for life, the roads will still be full of drunks. It is not about the person, or the risk, or the penalty. Alcohol is a poison that is like a little computer program. It is a lie that keeps on till you see everything ass backwards.
Your first drink as a kid taste like shit. That is your body telling you that alcohol is a poison, walk away. But, from birth we have been taught that normal, strong people drink, are in control, and can handle there liquor. We have been taught from birth that “grown ups drink”. And thus that first lie is told. See, a week willed person won’t finish that first drink. They will walk away.
A strong willed person will put the effort in and “acquire” the taste. (-; They will “overcome” the bad taste. After all, who could get hooked on a foul tasting thing like alcohol? Certainly NOT a strong willed person like me. (-; And from that very moment, the second drink you take, you have lost control. If YOU had control, what rational person would take even a second SIP of a foul tasting poison.
Of coarse we “all know” it “effects judgment”. What it does is shut every function in your body down, every single one, more and more with each drink. As ALL your senses shut down, so do the “senses” that tell you how drunk you are becoming, or that driving is a good or bad idea, to the point that if you drink enough it will render you senseless and legless. Get it down faster than you can puke it up, it will shut your body down and kill you.
I will not go out on New Years Eve because folks like “you” have had a “few” at dinners and parties and “think” you are in control on the way home. It is the worst day of the year to be on any road. Not because YOU are stupid or foolish, but because you like the worst drunk took the exact same poison and have to one degree or another had your senses shut down in exactly the same way. You may not be “as drunk” as others, but that is a matter of degree, not control. You still “present a danger” after one glass of red wine.
It is not about personality, it is a matter of degree. But I assure you, if you drink AT ALL today, ten years from now you WILL drink more. The trap that is alcohol is the elution of control, when in reality there is none, and every person who drinks is slipping down the exact same trap, just at different degrees and speeds.
The “price tag” for endangering fellow citizens can’t be over looked “because you were drunk”. However, harsher “criminalization” is useless. How has that mandatory 15 years for 3 rocks of crack worked out, other than over crowding our prisons to the point that murders that do NOT have a mandatory 15 roll out to create beds at 5 years. The problem begins with a society that does not understand the monster they face to begin with. (-;
Can you tell I have drank a tad bit over the last half century? (-; Can’t beat a thing till you understand what the thing is. You should do some reading. Might surprise you what you learn. Telling people booze “can” make you do bad things is the lie our society tells, and why it is such a huge problem.
Education has to start with the truth, it WILL make you do bad things. And, this is how and why . . . . . . (-; Criminal penalties just punish folks after the damage is done. They have there place. The solution however is in getting to people and preventing them from getting caught in the trap to begin with, and helping them get untangled from the trap if they are already there.
Trust me, every one does in fact NOT know a fraction of what you think they do. In fact, very few do. They just believe “those people” who “have a problem” are the issue. THEY on the other hand go to work every day, don’t cheat, are “good” people, THEY are in control. That is the biggest lie of all. (-; It isn’t about “them” to begin with. Booze works on us all the exact same way.
Again, not giving ANYONE a pass for ANYTHING. We all own our actions. But, like I said, you can’t beat a thing if you don’t understand it, personally or as a society.
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
"And from that very moment,
"And from that very moment, the second drink you take, you have lost control. But I assure you, if you drink AT ALL today, ten years from now you WILL drink more."
This is a baseless thing to say. You can't assume that I know nothing about addiction just because I've never been addicted to alcohol. I've overcome the "bad" taste of alcohol, but I fully recognize what addiction is. I remember my first cigarette - the coughing was terrible. I didn't understand how anyone could get addicted, so I had a second cigarette. But alas, not understanding addiction doesn't mean that it can't happen. A week ago marked 2 years since I've had a cigarette. I recognize the difference between deciding to have a second drink/cigarette/etc and needing to have it. I tried to quit smoking a number of times before I was successful, but it ended up with me "deciding" to have another, not because it was a rational choice, but because I felt like I needed it.
Perhaps you are right that penalties are not the way to decrease drunk driving, but education is. I can get behind that. But I stand behind everything else I said. If a person can't control themselves enough to not drive when they drink, then they have no business drinking. This isn't to say that I want to somehow prohibit these people from drinking. But I have friends who aren't in control of themselves when they drink, and I don't think they have any business drinking unless they get it under control. And I fully recognize that that's easier said than done.
I suppose that you are technically correct that having 1 drink is the same as 10 in terms of driving, just to a lesser degree. But I don't think that argument means that driving after 1 drink is a horrible idea. If something on the side of the road gets my attention (or when I check my blind stop), I may take my eyes off of the road for a split second. But if I were to stare over my shoulder, it would be dangerous. While these are different degrees, 1 is clearly acceptable while the other is not. I think something similar can be said about alcohol, but it's not such an objective issue. It's a bit of a slippery slope. If 1 drink is ok, then why not 2; if 2 drinks are ok, why not 3; etc. I solve this by not driving if I've had anything to drink.
I think the key difference is that people who really believe that driving drunk is a very bad thing won't do it. I suspect that the people who *say* that driving drunk is bad, but do it anyway don't really believe it, or they think they're an exception to the rule. I suppose that there are people whose belief system changes completely when they drink, but I have no interest in drinking with these people.
I smiled while reading every
I smiled while reading every word. (-; Well, matters not. My thoughts are just that, a half century of mistakes, experience and the thoughts they have created, no more, no less. Wish I lacked the experience to have formed them frankly. If you believe you or anyone else controls alcohol, that places you with 90% of the population. (-; I am without question out numbered in my thoughts. Still believe them to be accurate however. (-;
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
I'm not discounting your
I'm not discounting your experiences, I'm just saying that my own experiences have brought me to a different conclusion.
Issues with Alcohol
Elwood, clearly you have issues with Alcohol. Good on your for getting control of your problems. Please don't project those problems on the rest of us. Your control issues aren't mine.
"But I assure you, if you drink AT ALL today, ten years from now you WILL drink more. The trap that is alcohol is the elution of control, when in reality there is none, and every person who drinks is slipping down the exact same trap, just at different degrees and speeds."
That statement is only true for people who have an addiction problem. My drinking has steadily declined in the last twenty years, not increased. My enjoyment of beer, wine and whiskey has increased over that same period of time. I have learned to savor not only the flavor of strong drink, but its social effects.
Your arguments against alcohol could be just as easily applied to motorcycles. There are many people who get stupid when they get on a bike. Likewise, there are many people who are sensible, sane riders, and derive a real social benefit from riding. See the Patriot Guard Riders come out for a funeral some time and you'll see how motorcycling can be used to bring people together for a good cause.
"""That statement is only
"""That statement is only true for people who have an addiction problem. My drinking has steadily declined in the last twenty years, not increased. My enjoyment of beer, wine and whiskey has increased over that same period of time. I have learned to savor not only the flavor of strong drink, but its social effects."""
>>>>>>>>>
OK . . .first . .I am not projecting anything. I don’t believe in regulation of risk. (-; Grown up’s make choices, and I believe we have every right to make them. However, I am making an argument that the “choice” I made and that most of us make is based on flawed information. Once I got to thinking this through, I could no more make the argument that alcohol has one single redeeming quality than I could for some supreme being that snapped his fingers and made us all. (-; It is just how my mind works.
So, only addicts and addiction . .that is the “measure” you see. Was I addicted? My hands never shook. I went weeks on end often without a thought of so much as a beer . . never in my life felt one single symptom of withdraw . . hmmm . . yet it is the same kind of question I asked myself.
Now . . . are you saying that alcohol is not poisonous? And that if you don’t have some “flawed jean”, it will have positive happy effects? And it is the flawed jean that makes it a poison? Or would you agree, alcohol is in fact a toxic chemical that when ingested in LARGE quantities can result in death and sickness.
But . . .then . .if it is a poison if taken in adequate amounts that can then be deadly, was it not a “poison” from the first dose? Did the “effect” not start with the first dose? And does that not mean that it is a poison that has a cumulative effect in a session of drinking it?
So, if that is true . .then you kind of make the case is that non addicts can poison themselves “a little” to GOOD effect and “life enriching enjoyment”? Because you are in control, the nature of the toxic chemical is not “really” toxic?
You say you like the taste. So grain alcohol must be heaven for you, because it is the purist form of alcohol, the toxic chemical in question. Or is it really the various forms of covering up that taste you actually like? (-; I was a Jack man my self, and Scotch. Nether is as foul as grain alcohol is, they are “dressed up”. (-; I like my scotch cold, my Jack with a “splash” of coke . . .so it seems for me my honest answer was it was not really the “taste” of alcohol I was after. So when I was honest in answering this question, I had to admit it was not the “alcohol” I liked at all.
You say you like it social effects. Like? The slurred speech? The dulled senses? The fatiguing results of the depressant effects? Or, just saying it “might be possible” , do you enjoy social events that you just happen to have a drink at out of habit? Would you enjoy them any less without the drink? And IF one drink makes you “more” sociable, then doesn’t logic say ten drinks would have that much more of a “positive effect”? And if ten drinks is not creating a positive effect, how then did one do it? What was the “magic” moment the toxic chemical went from beneficial to detrimental? Or was it only detrimental, but only to a lesser degree?
As for comparing alcohol to a motorcycle . .please. Silly. When YOU are sober, on a bike or off, you are you. If a person is a jerk, they are a jerk on a bike or off. The motorcycle does nothing to physically shut down your body’s functions.
A jerk is still a jerk drunk. The difference is every drink you take removes a little bit of “you”. Good guy or bad guy . . less and less of the person who was there sober is left with every drink ingested. No rational person can argue that alcohol, the chemical, is not what it is. A depressant that with each does shuts down more of your body’s functions. Motorcycles do not do anything remotely like that. (-; Nice try however. (-;
You are kind of making “societies” argument that alcohol is only bad in “those people”. This conversation started with an article about a man who in a drunken fog killed another human being. My only point was that it is this “societal denial” that creates so many of “those people” like him.
The ONLY points I MIGHT be debating is the view that the chemical we call alcohol is anything other than what it is. A highly additive toxic poison with predictable results when ingested in the human body. See, once I stopped making all the normal “justifications” society taught me to make . .my hands don’t shake, I can and do stop often, I pay all my bills on time, I am never late to work . . . bla, bla . . . . and just saw a chemical in front of me that was in FACT poisonous to the human body I had to then ask myself more questions. But it all boiled down to this. There is NOTHING I do better with a drink in me than I do sober, not one single thing. I could find not one single benefit to ingesting that poison, not a single one. So then, why would I ingest it at all? Hard logic to beat. And every day that passes, well I don’t feel like I am “giving up drinking” at all. There was nothing to give up in the first place. I just don’t find myself any longer having any desire to do it. In fact, I feel a hell of a lot better not doing it. (-;
Now . .dont mistake that as preaching. I don’t believe in God, but I aint gonna try and change anyone’s mind that does. Lol Drinking was popular thousands of years ago, and will be popular thousands of years from now . . .Lol Want to debate what the chemical IS . .I’ll do that, and have been in this whole thread. I believe that is fact based information. Based on it I chose to pretty much quit drinking. If with those facts in mind anyone else finds the benefits out weight the risk, hey more power to ya. It is the choice I made for years . . but never in all those years did I truly sit down and think it through the way I have this past year. The change in information and more importantly how I saw it led me to make a new choice is all.
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
Spurious logic
Elwood, your logic doesn't flow even a little bit. YOU have a problem with alcohol. You're certainly not alone.
In short, the Devil doesn't live in the alcohol, but in men's hearts. In the original post, nobody held a gun to these guys heads and forced them to drink before taking to the roads. Likewise, nobody held a gun to your head while your drinking (among other things) was playing hob with your personal life.
Take responsibilities for you actions. Don't try to lay it on society or alcohol. At any point you always had the option to step back and not drink, or not drink in those quantities. So did the folks in the original post.
I'm not speaking out my ass here, Elwood. I've been down that road with other substances. And I found myself in stupid situations because of how I was using those substances. In the case of one substance, I quit using it entirely. The other, I still use occasionally, either socially or when its effects would be beneficial.
I am NOT dismissing men''s
I am NOT dismissing men''s choices at all. Only saying that a lot of choice is made on bad information. When I was a kid, Dr's still said smoking was GOOD for you. (-; As folks got better information, they made better choices. It's not rocket science.
So again, you never answered the question.
You are then saying the "chemical" is safe, beneficial and that it is SMART to ingest it in any quantity. (-;
The ONLY "danger" it presets or negative effect it has is in a "mans heart", or again otherwise said, only "defective" men take a risk by ingesting this chemical. You "normal" people are perfectly safe and risking nothing. (-; Otherwise it is a "non-toxic. non addictive, and otherwise "healthy" substance, it is only some defective "jean" in "some" human beings that "transforms" the chemical into something "toxic. Forget "addicted". Focus, "toxic". And, if it is "toxic",then what "benefit" does it possess?
Come at me personally till you turn pink. To me, I hear "denial". I am not trying to talk you out of drinking in any way shape or form. But if you are defending drinking a chemical, and your "position" is that chemical is a harmless substance as long as you have "control and have that good heart then I think you my friend have less control than you think. A man in complete control at least is honest about WHAT he puts in his body. He THEN would defend the action based of "benefits" it gave him that "out weighed" the risk. REAL risk assessment begins with actually accessing the risk to begin with. Something I did not due till I was well into my 40's.
You will again come back and say I "have a problem". maybe, maybe not. If I DID, it seems to have been resolved. (-; But that began with an open mind and a new risk assessment. I could have "cut back" again. But it just was not logical to do that again based on the facts. Once I STOPPED spitting out the platitudes almost word for word you are sending my way for 30 years and just looked at the substance alone. I could think of no good reason whatsoever to chose it as a refreshment as apposed to another choice that simply contains no poison. It in the end was not a complected consideration of society or hearts or amounts . .why the hell would I intentionally drink ANY poison at all. It is that simple. That is my position in the conversation.
So, if you insist on continuing, drop the cop out insults. You are simple dadge the facts by making it personal and about ME. Make an argument as to WHY IT IS SMART TO INGEST IT. If you CANT make THAT argument, then you frankly have found yourself in exactly the same place I did.
Kind of like my standard line when I was still smoking. ""Any coward can quit, it takes a MAN to face cancer head on."" Even I did not try to argue the "chemicals" are harmless. Lol
I debate a dean at Berkly for entertainment. (-; She can even spell. LoL I don't do it to win arguments at all. I do it to learn, to expand my thinking. To improve my ability to communicate. So dont feel as if this is some kind of "personal" thing. It isnt. I just find discussion about things that effect 90% of society interesting in general. In fact, in the past I was looking for "reasons" to decide to give up drinking or not. When I just looked at the chemical in isolation . .thats when the light came on, I was not giving anything up. I had simply been programed to believe I was. In a way, that to some degree supports YOUR position. But it was not some great flaw in my character that caused it, it was a flaw in the "information" I was processing in my brain. You simply have not responded to anything I have said AT ALL. You skipped all discussion of what the chemical is, what its lab tested proven effects on living tissue is, and just did what 90% of society does. You rationalized your own actions by pointing a finger at "them" saying "they" are different than you. All age old "platitudes" offered by every drinker, alcoholic or not . . all drinkers say exactly the same things. However . .in your own way of thinking, if you have to control your consumption to begin with, what does that say about the substance you are consuming? That is a rational, logical question. It just took me many years to look in a mirror and ask it. (-; It is extremely fun to discuss it, it is educational as hell. The responses and answers are soooo predictable, soooo programed. (-; They ALL overlook the "substance" completely . .. and THAT is the interesting part of the conversations. LoL Trust me, I will know the moment you actually begin to think, to look at ONLY the substance as a chemical without considering in context of you or I. The science on alcohol is as solid as it is on cigarettes.
What you have not done is simplify the conversation, remove me and any problems I may or may not have, and your self including any issues you may or may not have, and make it a simple discussion about the positive benefits the chemical offers. "I enjoy it" is an addicts answer, not a rational response. The "behavior" you describe in yourself is that of a "responsible" drinker. Not a "drunk."
So start there. As a "responsible" drinker, what is it about the chemical itself that makes the occasional drink worth ingesting a poisonous, toxic chemical in any quantity at all. If your argument is that alcohol is not a toxic chemical, then back up that position. I am guessing even you agree in quantity it is damaging to the body. So it "seems" your position is if you only drink a little that drinking it is fine.
To me, that is like saying . .raid is a poison .. but just a little on my home grown pot makes the buzz so much better. As long as I don't spray "to much" it is OK. (Normal practice in the late 70's by the way.)
If your overall answer is nothing more than you enjoy it and just don't care . .fine. (That was mine for many years.)
If the best you have is "Elwood, you have a drinking problem" . . lets let it drop. I never had a problem drinking at all. In fact I found it very easy. (-; I still dont have a problem. I just no longer have a desire to do it, and this conversation is why I dont. It is not about changing anyone else's mind if they do. I have never been the type that had any issue owning my own actions, so you wont shame or embarrass me in the least. I lived the way I did, and whatever I did yesterday is in the past, and I dont give a shit what folks think about it for a simple reason, it cant be changed. What I have "control" over is the future. I have went years not drinking, and I have went for years when I just used a funnel and poured. (-; That's me, no big deal.
BUT, if you are going to say there is no LOGIC in NOT ingesting POISON on purpose . . .then I am all ears. I want to hear this. (((-;
That becomes an intelligent discussion as apposed to just another "normal drinker" defending his "normalcy". We are taught those "platitudes" almost from birth. They are not particularly original. My guess, the worst drunk on the bored down to the folks who have a single glass of champagne once a year on new years eve will spit them out almost word for word as well. I know you have said nothing so far I myself have not said. (-; They are the "programed" responses. Not well articulated thoughts, and certainly not well considered thoughts with regard to "risk assessment". See, you are not "wrong". You simply have made a different choice than I have. Discuss it in context of debate of why you made a different choice regarding what any rational man will admit is a dangerous, or at the very least a "potentially dangerous" chemical, or admit you haven't ever really & truly considered it at all and drop it.
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
I agree Elwood. I'm 23 (24
I agree Elwood. I'm 23 (24 in Aug.). I have 2 kids +1 step, and I don't even enjoy drinking anymore. Maybe one drink when I'm out with friends, but that's all I've done. I got it all out of my system before I was 20. Lots of international port calls from ages 17-18, and then house parties and frat parties @ Rutgers.....yeah, no drinking for me. My liver has had the same amount of abuse as a normal 35-40 year old. I feel old when I'm at the bar.....sad eh?
Not really. If I told you I
Not really understanding what would make ya feel "old" in that bar. You should feel embarrassed for the folks around you. If I told you I could teach you take take just one dose of arsenic at a time . . would you ask me why the hell you would want to do that?
So why then, other than all the "brain washing" we get from birth about how "cool" people handle there liquor, would we want to drink even a sip of a highly addictive, nasty tasting poison? (-; It really is the same thing. LoL
I was able to polish a 5th of Jack by the time I was 20, and still drink a 12 pack the same night. I could drink a case of beer at night and was NEVER late getting in the next morning. I was in the Marines, smoking and drinking and all, I still did 3 miles in under 21 minuets, and did pull ups 30 or more ata time with my eyes closed. Man, had it under control. That was when I had that first little enduro I crashed. (Gee, wander why.) I "cut down" to strictly social events after I got married. That and a little yard work. When it became my job to "host" hard drinking sales people every night on an expense account, I again was able to drink MORE than a 5th of whiskey or scotch, and still be playing host. That was an almost 7 year run at ending in 2006. When I came off the road, I again "cut down", and when the housing market collapsed and I had reajust to making less than a 3rd of what I had been and went into a chapter 7 . .while life was just as stressed at it gets I quit smoking. LoL I was already "down to" only two packs a day of reds by then anyway. And i again got my drinking back down to "mostly" social outings and those boring Saturday nights.
It was kind of after that I started asking myself why I bother drinking at all. I dont have fun when I drink. I get tired, less sociable and less energic. I become less capable of doing whatever it is I am doing. And I feel like shit when I wake up. So I am asking myself what exactly it is alcohol "did for me". The answer was obvious. Nothing at all, not one single thing. LoL
Now . . every so often I buy a six pack on one of those boring Saturday nights, and mostly it reminds me that I don't really enjoy drinking to begin with. So I figure by the end of this year, like the smokes, I just wont bother at all any more. No feeling "old at the bar", no sense of loss, no regrets. Just like I cant stand the smell of stale smoke on a girls breath already . .that same kind of disconnect is happening with alcohol. It has simply lost its attraction. (-; Rather than feeling like I need to "control" anything, or that I need any will power at all . . I just plain no longer really have an interest in a drink. Kind of easy, and frankly I wish I had figured this out sooner. What idiot "likes" drinking a nasty tasting poison. LoL
Oh . .for those who say they like the taste . .BS. Buy some grain alcohol or grab a little Kentucky shine and tell me it "tastes good". (-; (I loved grain or even 151, hit like a sledge hammer.) Forget all the different ways we cover up the taste . .the main ingredient, alcohol, is the same for all of the wonderful mix's we come up with to get it down.
I cant imagine if you think a moment about it that you could find even one good reason to have a drink in a bar. I really cant find many reasons to BE in a bar. LoL Used to love the places . .being the only sober person around now, I cant think of one "good" reason I did. Just a place that you didn't notice how comatose you were because everyone else was just as sloppy. (-; Now all I see is "sloppy' surrounding me.
Naw . .if you figured this stugff out at 24, good for you. I smoked filterless sigs for years 3 packs a day, went to reds, 2 to 3 packs a day . .started smoking when I was 11. So about 36 years. My first job was in a night club in the 70's at 15. I could out drink most adults by the time I was 16. My guess is after taht many years of all that poison, I will have some price tags come due. Shame I didn't see it all sooner. But you know the 60's & 70's . . .love peace and pot. Everyone was to stoned to see how stupid they were. (-;
Anyway . .long winded. But I figure it will help ya miss those drinking days less. LoL When you really stop and remember, the slurring, the staggering, the stupid arguments, your face in a toilet, the head aches . . just really remember it how it WAS, not how you at the time wanted to see it . .hell, whats to miss? LoL
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
A lot of great thoughts
I really enjoyed reading them all.
My two cents:
I've lost three close cousins to drunk driving. They weren't the ones drinking. I lost a friend in high school to a drunk driver. My long-time friend and housemate lost his mother at 15 years old to drunk driving (she WAS the drinker). I can't begin to tell you how many lives she (the mother) completely screwed over. The list goes on and on. Point is, I think I understand what you're saying Elwood, but I can only take it as a statement of the nature of things and nothing more. It may be true to say that there's nothing known to man that will prevent drunk driving or the horrors of addiction and societal pressures, but that's not enough to make me ok with it.
People die. And usually it's not the fuck-ups doing the dying. It's the sixteen-year-old birthday girl driving her "new" '98 civic home from her first solo drive who gets plowed by a drunk in an Expedition who strayed into oncoming traffic. It's the father who crashed the car carrying his wife and kids, killing them, but surviving himself (though if he has any conscience, continuing life should be punishment enough). I stand by Zep's assertion that those who can't control themselves have no business doing anything. Want to be a real man? Don't fuck with the livelihood of others so you can fulfill absurd and counter-productive self-expectations of machismo.
You're right. My sentiments won't stop anybody from driving drunk, or losing track of what's important in life, or neglecting friends and family, or doing any of the things that sometimes come as a result of alcohol or related issues. But it's true nonetheless. And hell, another's death is a helluva price for anybody to learn a life lesson they shouldn't have needed (in my happy-go-lucky utopia).
See, it the "fuck ups" part I
See, it the "fuck ups" part I am talking about. You mean the ones that in every movie they watched, people were drinking and having a ball. When things went well, the champagne came out. When things went wrong the booze was passed to deaden the pain, when life was hard a drink was bought to "relive the stress". You mean the fuck up that was brain washed at every turn from birth that drinking was fun, was cool, was a beneficial thing to do? Hmmmm . . . . isnt that a "normal" drinker?
These are but a very few of the thousands of daily reinforcements our society bombards and arguably brain washes us with in convincing us we are "normal" and drinking is "beneficial" when "used right".
When did champagne make an event "happier".
When did booze make sorrow go away, much less for good.
When did it make the cause of stress go away?
Well, you get the idea. The point is it is the very fact that society is so insistent on having this conversation about "normal drinking" that creates the "fuck ups". It is "denial" on a massif scale. (-; "They", Them" "the fuck ups" . .all meant to make us feel "that inst me". I described some of my drinking history . . . yet I have never been in trouble, payed my bills on time, (till the housing market fell apart), was never late to work, never call in sick . . . . so by "society's rules" I had no reason to even give any of this a second thought, did I?
I am in now way giving anyone a pass, along with choice comes responsibility, period. What I am saying is that in every case you really do see two victims of a sort. What does that change? Not much, other than the conversation we as a society have about the subject, and how we maybe approach solution that would RESULT in LESS drunks on the road.
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
I think I understand
You're saying that, by obsessing over those who really do mess up, "normal people" take attention away from their own potential problems and focus on the problems of others. Is that right? That this allows for denial on most of society's part with respect to where the boundary lies between "healthy/social drinking" and serious problems?
Sort of, kind of . . it isnt
Sort of, kind of . . it isnt like anyone sets down and thinks that way . . .it is just kind of a societal mind set that has developed. 90% of Americans drink. Think about that. (-; Do you believe we all do, did it because of the vast array of "positive" things alcohol does for us? (-; Or have we just kind of been taught to, and "brainwashed" into believing it has beneficial effects. And if 90% of us do it, is the surounding conversation about it more like to justify its use, or boldy face the nature of the drug? (-; If we have to face 400,000 alcohol related deaths a YEAR . . how do we face personally consuming a KILLER DRUG like that without making ourself believe "they" must be inherently different than us?
What I kind of stared doing is taking every "benefit", and just challenging it. Did it make party's more fun, or were party fun in spite of its effects? Things like that. Once my mind opened up a little, it all looked different.
I grew up on John Wayne and Clint Eastwood . . there was never a question in my mind as a "kid" that MEN drink whiskey, and do so neat. (-;
So, denial is not an intentional thing in answer to your question. But before we, me, whatever, before "I could" continue to justify my own consumption, I had in light of some of these considerations reconcile any difference between me consuming it and the guys who does crash cars and kill folks . . in the end . . any human being with enough alcohol in them to shut down there brain functions enoughs could make that choice to get in a car, becoming a weapon without even understanding they are doing it. That SAME person would NEVER dream of driving drunk when they weren't. Not saying any of us WOULD, just that the nature of the DRUG means any of us COULD be incapacitated enough to do all kinds of regretful things. It is not the nature of the person, it is the nature of the drug itself we fail to consider. Even in this conversation on the board . .the "tone" of response says it all, it is the "person" . . "they are week". "they are addicts" . . "THEY" being key. What is implied . .it cant happen to me, I am in control. I would have said the same things a year ago I bet. (-;
Look, not everyone who drinks goes way on down that slide. However, nearly everyone I know IS further down the slide than they admit. It truly is the nature of the drug. And not seeing it is as well part of the nature of the drug. Frankly, most people I know that have "a drink" hear and there are really "non drinkers". They enjoy the ritual of a cigar and a Johnny Walker . . but they dont "really like" the booze. What they really is the company of good friends and good conversation and the ritual . . and they could enjoy another "ritual" with the same friends just as much without the toxic props. (-;
Try this on for size . . . if you cant enjoy a party that has no booze . . is it because you dont like those people & cant deal with them sober, or because you are miserable when you cant drink? (-;
Life is fun when you are willing to ask yourself challenging questions. loL I try to make a habit of it.
edit:
interesting perspective: No one would defend "Heroin" . . .
""""Out of the 11,651 deaths... accidental and intentional by way of suicide... reported to DAWN by medical examiners in 1999, the most recent year for which complete statistics are available, 4,820 were the result of heroin or morphine abuse, or some combination of those and other drugs."""""
Compared to 400,000'ish with alcohol. (-;
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
I think your logic of
I think your logic of comparing alcohol to heroin is way off. Granted alcohol might be responsible for a immensely greater number of deaths than heroin. On the other hand, as you mention, probably somewhere in the range of 90% of american adults drink at least occasionally; a very tiny percentage will ever try heroin. The vast majority of people who drink do so socially and find it pleasurable with little or no negative effects. Hell, if it weren't for alcohol they probably could have made that 40 Year Old Virgin movie about me. I don't think you'll find very many, if any at all, who say they feel that heroin has added to the enjoyment of their lives.
I disagree completely about
I disagree completely about the Heroin comparison. It in fact is full circle to the original point.
In society, other than a heroin user, would anyone consider the drug one that is ok to take "as long as you have control"? Less people "chose it" because it is NOT popular or cool. It is in fact our "conversation and perception" as a society that discourages its use. (No, being illegal does not do it.) Yet it is a VERY popular drug none the less.
Fact one . . heroin is an addictive drug.
Fact two . . alcohol is an addictive drug.
Now, re read what has been written, not by me, but by everyone else. Compare that to every conversation on the subject you have ever heard. The ONLY difference is one simple LIE we are all taught.
"It isn’t the alcohol, it's the "flawed person". OK, change your way of seeing that . . .accept that alcohol is in fact an addictive drug. Accept that it is toxic and poisonous. (Proven science, chemical facts.) But IN YOUR MIND . .start with that premise LIKE YOU WOULD HERION . . . .
Then sit down and make a rational, logical argument about why you personally would want to ingest that drug at all, why you would want to learn to control it. (-;
Me, when I made that SLIGHT shift in thinking . . I saw everything completely differently. If as a society we started with a conversation not about flawed people, or control, or even about the "devil weed" like the old reefer madness films that are so stupid . . .but rather a normal, fact based look at the chemical itself. Alcohol is good for getting old glue off of a surface, for putting in a dragster, for starting fires, for disinfecting, (because of how it KILLS germs) . . name ONE other chemical LIKE that you would CHOSE to ingest. LoL
Being the "socially accepted drug of choice" does not make it a harmless substance. A more honest look at the substance would result in less Billy lanes . .just like an honest look at tobacco leads fewer folks to want to smoke it. It isn’t about laws . . . its about logic and honesty.
When it comes to alcohol . . I am not sure I was ever “addicted”. I was just distracted. I was so busy looking for that “magic place” where it was all good, full of positive benefits and life enraging outcome, that “normal” place found with that perfect level of “control”.
That’s all bull shit brain washing. LoL It is a nasty substance that has no rational reason for being inside of my body. LoL It was always that simple. A society that has a 90% usage rate is what fogged the issue is all. In fact, it is no different that heroin, or coke or any other addictive drug. It is kind of hard to rationalize “controlling” any of them.
Oh, any heroin user will tell you how wonderful the drug is, for a while. LSD “expands the mind”. Coke makes you superman. . all of the drugs have users, and all users have excuses for using. Just think about it for a while . . this is not a sermon . .it is all around you every day. As a non drinker . .how many times has a friend stood in front of you talking about his “control” when YOU being sober saw only the utter lack of it? (-;
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
Elwood, if thinking about
Elwood, if thinking about other uses of alcohol ie as a disinfectant, improves your life in any way, by any means, that is a good thing. However, the fact is that the ethanol we might use in a bunson burner or add to our gasoline bears little in common, except for chemical composition, to a beer. Yes I understand alcohol is alcohol, the same substance, but that's a stretch. You may call it a poison, but over the years studies have praised the effect of a moderate intake of alcohol, especially red wine.
I wouldn't say that those who have an issue with alcohol are flawed people, but I also wouldn't always call alcohol a dangerous drug. Certainly some people and alcohol are a flawed or dangerous combination and yes, somebody who normally does not have a problem with alcohol can abuse and turn it into a dangerous drug. Since it can be abused should there be a campaign to stigmatize it in the same way that tobacco has been stigmatized? Should it be banned? Does it mean that I am a lesser person because I enjoy a beer with my buddies? a bloody mary at brunch? a glass of Pinot with my wife? There are people who feel that sportsbikes should be banned, people who if they see you on a motorcycle will come up to you and tell you that you are putting yourself and everyone on the road at risk. Certainly motorcycles can be abused but the majority of riders do so safely and it adds to their enjoyment of life; I think it's a very apt analogy. Some people should never touch a drop of booze, some people should never swing their leg over a bike. Not being able to do either of them safely doesn't make one flawed in any way, simply someone who shouldn't drink or someone who shouldn't ride.
As far as heroin, I don't think too many addicts will tell you how wonderful the drug is. Most of them know they are seriously fucking themselves up. It is not just a matter of alcohol being socially acceptable, most people who drink alcohol do it in reasonable amounts and suffer very little in the way of negative side effects. A huge percentage of people who dabble in heroin become addicts. Alcohol can be addictive, heroin is extraordinarily addictive.
As for your last sentence have I ever been sober while an out of control drunk went on about how he or she just had a drink or two? Of course I have, drunks can be arrogant and ignorant. However, if that drunken idiot doesn't drive and isn't compelled to repeat their act the next night, the night after that or even the next weekend, if it doesn't get them fired, divorced or beaten senselessly on a regular basis for being an ass, I'm sorry but I don't see a major problem with it.
I hope you don't take any of this as a personal attack, it's certainly not written as one. I simply feel you are demonizing alcohol because of the negative effect that it has had on you and you are certainly not alone. If that helps you out, cool. However, some of us enjoy a drink from time to time, don't suffer harm from it, and will happily continue doing so. Much as you, or anyone else, isn't flawed for needing to abstain, we are not flawed for drinking responsibly.
Again . . last time I say it,
Again . . last time I say it, period.
No, it should not be banned.
No, it should not be taxed into oblivion.
No, I have no issue with anyone drinking it.
No, it is not the devil.
I am tired. (-; So let me sum up the arguments so far . . .
""""""
A Professor of Medicine, a man well known for his earnest and oft-proclaimed Temperance views, was (yet again) lecturing the medical students on the damage that alcohol can do. To demonstrate its effect on the nervous system, he took a worm and dropped it into a glass of gin & tonic. The worm wriggled around for a few minutes before finally giving a few convulsive twitches and dying.
"And can we deduce anything from that?", asked the Professor with the triumphant air implying that only obvious conclusion could be drawn.
"Yes," came a voice from the back, "if you've got worms, drink alcohol."
"""""""
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
Oh boy !!! the ever so fun
Oh boy !!! the ever so fun debate of alcoholism and the triggers that cause it.... or.... Society is partly to blame for all the misconceived ideas of alcohol because of the movies, commercials, advertising etc.
Can alcohol kill...yes
Is alcohol addictive....can be ... especially from emotional dependency
Is movies to blame........ varies person to person
Is there ever a good explanation of why bad stuff happens with alcohol ( or anything else for that matter) .....never.
Does your body give you enough warning signs that this is bad stuff.... absolutely
Does the typical drinker strive to ignore this... absolutely
Who's responsible... the consumer
End Game....lol.... well for me!
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
See, thats the city boy in me
See, thats the city boy in me showing through, over thinking everything. Lol
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
Wow...serious stuff going on
Wow...serious stuff going on in this thread. Maybe I can add to it a little.
While I agree with most of what Elwood says, I can't say I agree 100%. Society plays a huge role in why & how people drink, but I think you have accept it is not the reason people drink. Mankind has been brewing alcohol since the dawn of time, in all kinds of cultures and societies. It's hard to blame Hollywood when we have been drinking booze since we were living in caves. Even wild animals have been observed to seek out fermented fruit as they enjoy the effects. Alcohol is a poison but it does have an effect that is 'pleasurable'. Truth is if it did not, no-one would be drinking it.
I am from Scotland and lived there for the first 35 years of my life. In Scotland (and England & Ireland) the whole social scene revolves around alcohol. Where Americans go out for a meal, British people go out to drink. And the point of drinking is to get drunk. This is the society norm and is not really questioned (other than doctors who see the affect it has on our health). Now in this drunken society where the legal penalties are MUCH LESS than here, people do not drink & drive. It is not the law that stops people from drinking and driving it is social pressure. It simply is not an acceptable thing to do. Drink enough to vomit on the sidewalk and your friends will laugh at you, get behind the wheel and you will become an outcast.
(Sidenote for Elwood: I am convinced this public attitude has been formed by government safety adverts over decades. Back in the 50s apparently we were as likely to drive drunk as anyone, aka Mad Men. But where the UK attitude has changed the US has not. A positive argument for government brain washing? :)
When I first moved to America I was horrified at the amount of drunk drivers I saw. Normal law abiding, church going citizens would go out and have 3 or 4 drinks and then drive home. Or even more bizarrely, drive to a 24 hour diner to 'sober up' before driving home? They were convinced they were fine (but they were not). But no-one, even the sober ones, ever made a fuss over this. It was simply an accepted behavior and no-one thought ill of them (apart from me).
I can't say I have any patience for people who plan to have 4 or 5 drinks and then drive. But the hard reality is alcohol impairs your judgment (shocking I know) and sometimes you end up doing something you shouldn't. That might be shagging your boss at the Christmas party or it may be driving when you've had a few too many. Unless you never drink you cannot be certain you will never be in that position. So I agree with Elwood, do not fall into the trap of thinking of it only happens to "those" people.
But I think Elwood overstates the "demon" part of alcohol. It seems to me that this is a hang up of American society. I have never been in a country as tee-total as this one. There is a definite stigma to drinking here and I'm convinced this is partly the reason college kids go crazy as they "rebel" against society. It is entirely possible to have a "healthy" relationship with alcohol and lead a normal life. Germany does not suffer the drunken loutish behavior of the UK but there you can buy beer from dispensing machines in your works cafeteria (and I saw this in a factory where there were machines that could tear off your limbs). French parents teach their kids to appreciate wine from an early age.
Yes, alcohol is a poison, but in moderation it can be a great social lubricant. The WD40 for parties :)
I had no idea you were from
I had no idea you were from Scotland! Cool! My family supposedly came from your neck of the woods many, many years past. (Ireland actually)
You I think understand what I am saying, well 98% The "whys" are a whole different subject. That is why AA works so well, not higher powers or defects or any of that . . it forces them to face the "why". Being a non believer, that old mirror is my only moral compass. (-;
I am also not saying alcohol is the "devil". ONLY that it is a chemical, one proven to be addictive and damaging to a HUGE number who use it. Any HONEST choice to use it has to start with understating the risk of your choice. And as a society, that honest risk assessment is absent. We focus more on rationalizing its continued use and excusing its effects as anything’s fault but its own. We refuse as a society to simply recognize the true nature of the chemical as an addictive and toxic substance.
I mean think about it. We use it to start fires, to run race cars, to dissolve glue and remove wax. . . .and we also DRINK IT. LoL What other substance do we remotely see that way? LoL
The drunk driving thing . .as long as you are under a point 08, you are in control, right? Goes right back to the logic everyone has used just not being logical at all. Societies chosen point of "control". (-; (Oh, I never did have an issue with public service announcements. We just do them very badly in this country.) ((-; We chose a point 08 and then “criminalized it”, and in doing so let all the “normal drinks feel good about themselves. We did not change how society saw drinking and driving, we just defined where YOU WERE STILL IN CONTROL when doing it. Stupid really. LoL
I never gave a thought to jumping in the car after a beer or two . . knew I was "legal". The bike was an amazing provocateur of this line of thought however. I feel a HUGE difference on the bike after just a single beer. Buying this motorcycle kind of started all this with me . .. that "one beer" feeling I would have argued FOREVER had no effect before made me rethink all kinds of things.
As for booze being social lubricant. Well . . .that is a whole new conversation. LoL In hind site . . maybe I would debate it's vale there even more. LoL I do cocktail parties all the time still, part of the job ya know, those "mixers". It is so much more fun when I take the bike, drink NOTHING and watch people slide down into comatose, repetitive, nonsensical conversations . .all the while being convinced how smart they all are, how important with all there money. (-;
See, we never stop learning in life. I am learning that I was wrong for years about my view on booze. It was almost totally based on a "fear of loss". I thought I would no longer be able to go out and have fun with everyone. I thought I would be missing out on life if I stopped. I was 100% wrong. I am having more fun than ever, and I have lost nothing at all. In fact I have gained a lot of freedom. As you say, a few drinks and that impulsive midnight ride was lost, a door closed. The folks you could meet and encounter also a lost opportunity . . you had to “plan” to get drunk. And in so doing became chained to that choice.
Again . .just MY new way of looking at things.
The only argument I have made in ALL of these posts is to at least START by being honest. The SUBSTANCE is indeed an addictive drug. "With that said, this is why I enjoy it . . . . . . . " ((-;
That is where the Billy Lanes of the world start getting fixed. He was successful BECAUSE he was smart. (-; Had logic been the conversation he grew up with rather than a challenge to his manhood about control, . . . . hmmm. Seems a logical consideration to me. (-;
I like this conversation on this board too. How many of those who pass over this go to bike nights and have a single beer, maybe two because “they are in control”. Hope it makes us all think before we drink anything and ride. (-;
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
Freakin me out
Guys, you are freaking me out a bit here......Heroine....booze, whatever happened to smokin a little grass going for a good 100 mph run and surviving. I will be watching out for you guys on the road.....what did you say you ride. LOL, Not being jugemental....knock yourself out....guess thats why I am the Olderguy....before anyone else says it.
Live Free!
ok something doesn't add up
ok something doesn't add up here.... grass.....100 mph...what were you doing going on a cheeto run?
****Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but, rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy Shit....What a ride!!!"****
Baritos back then . .7-11's
Baritos back then . .7-11's had just gotten microwaves!!!
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store
You're lyin'
There's no way you could get a bike up to 100mph while you were stoned. The officer had you clocked at 10.
lol........I can't say this
lol........I can't say this is from "personal experience", but I know of a "person" who had a hard time keeping up with the speed limit (like 45?)......lol
Yeper . .the 70's . .it was a
Yeper . .the 70's . .it was a whole different world. We used to toss a case in the car and cruise the strip in Ft Lauderdale, we used to actually SHARE beer with LEO back then. (-; As long as you were respectful and reasonably well behaved, no one cared. Open beers while sitting on a jeeps roll bars, or in the widow of the Super Bee with those beers on the roof . . LEO didn't bat an eye. They could care less about the open containers as long as you behaved.
2006 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
Sales, Peterson's North Miami Store