- This topic has 38 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 5 months ago by smokeizfire.
PC or not PC, that is the question
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September 28, 2008 at 7:00 pm #2164RupmiscParticipant
Things seem to be heating up on the general forums, for non–motorcycle reasons. I want to ask a question here.
I am not especially PC, really. On social matters, I tend to be a libertarian. But sometimes I see things that are hurtful, or stupid, or not meant badly but showing subconscious prejudice. It bothers me. People have the right to say anything, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t ignorant (as in not knowing), or evil, or stupid, or anything. Other people are free to point this out.
There is a thread on the general forum that contains this sentence:
“The Mercedes SUV in the lane immediately to your left, driven by a completely oblivious black lady, just barrels through, coating your leather coat and soaking the left side of your body.”
Do you think this is purely descriptive? Does the race of the driver matter? Does the sex of the driver matter? If lady is an indication of age (how many 20 year olds would be referred to as “lady” here), does that matter? Does the make of car matter? Maybe the poster was just setting the scene. But you could question all of these details. If it had been a young white guy in a Honda, does it change the story which is that people in cars can be oblivious?
I won’t go through this point by point. But I could argue that this post was (perhaps subconsciously) racist and sexist. Mercedes tend to be expensive, do wealthy people care less? Age equals oblivious? Bullshit.
Now, does that make me PC if I question the post? The author can say what he wants, but if I notice am I being oversensitive? As Elwood and others have noted, we all have motorcycles in common. We respect that aspect of our shared experience. Not taking a position on some of these posts (not the right to post them) seems more to confirm a stereotype that people who ride motorcycles are foolhardy, thrill seeking, kids or beer drinking, criminal renegades.
Are we not supposed to call someone who makes an offensive comment? Yell at me for writing “fuck” or “shit” and I’ll respond. Race or sex have historically been used to justify horrible actions. Isn’t it ok to discuss it.
I was just curious after having seen a number of comments about PC, sensitivity, and free speech. I love free speech. PC means accepting something foolish rather than challenge a prevailing notion. Sensitivity is a good thing if it leads to empathy and compassion, or bad if it means you can’t take a joke.
Okay, I’m done. End of rant. Thanks.
September 29, 2008 at 8:10 pm #12966BuddParticipantWell I would say that the PC still gets more software support than the Mac. I build my own machines so it is a PC life for me. I can make whatever Mac is selling and do it for about half the price.
Not touching the real topic with a ten foot pole.
“I am the best there is at what I do, and what I do ain’t nice.”-Wolverine
September 29, 2008 at 9:11 pm #12972RupmiscParticipantLove my macs. Only use one PC to run one piece of software. Everything else, especially photography and video, much better on the Mac. But I don’t build my own.
Don’t blame you on the main topic, but I do think it’s worth a try.
September 30, 2008 at 3:16 am #13011MunchParticipantI will touch the subject. PC is a crock and relatively useless. You can immediately catch those who refer to it and know they have more issues generally then the person they are going after. What does it matter if it was to set the scene or really an underlying stereotypical remark? Did it effect the way the sun rose for you the next morning…. or how about wether or not you got the paper? If you got nothing more in your day then to worry about someone broad stroking society with stereo types or wether someones feelings got inconveniently stepped on then I would say to you that you are likely not concentrating enough on your own happiness. Let the offended speak up for their personal feelings. Unless they are mute its not your responsibility.
Stereotypes suck, I agree, hell I fit some of them. Do I care… no. Why because I have a redneck exterior and I have fun blowing peoples minds when I give them food for thought and can hold a conversation at the dinner table on a level they would never in a million years picture me doing. If people would however quit living the stereotypes, there would not be any.
However I can almost agree, to a point, on sensitivity…or better put ….. tact. Freedom to speak your mind does not mean that you have to refer to the handicapped by their given affliction or even the fact that they are handicapped at all. Talking to people at most time requires some tact, however does not ean you have to be PC….
I work in a town known as Cary, warmly and proven to be fubbed: Central Area of Relocated Yankees.
Rude… maybe to some…. but the town itself has now adopted the idea and almost are proud of it. Doesn’t mean when I walk out to the waiting area I will ask for the “Yankee that owns the B-mer please come to the service area” . However if chance lends itself to conversation I am not gonna sidestep any remarks about the nickname.
Personally GOOD people learn to make light of what they get dubbed with…. heck some make millions from it.
Jeff Foxworthy made millions off making fun of his previous lifestyle as a redneck
Alot of Rappers make millions off of being “gangsta”
If you take the possibility of hurtful things to the future offender you therefore have effectively disarm them.
I have lost my front teeth by being headbutted by a horse. At the moment I don’t have the money to get it fixed. However when I talk to new people I can immediately see their eyes go straight to my grill…. and I know the first usual though ” God this guy must be a heroin addict”….lol….. I would probably think the same also. I take control of the situation and first thing I tell them and with a totthless smile like that of a 7 yr old….. “No I don’t do drugs, yea I am a redneck, no I didn’t fight your brother. My womans horse headbutted me after she thought she saw a snake” . At which point alot of questions ensue and the ice has been broken.Doh…I gots plenty more I can type but hell even I am getting tired of reading. One more point though…. I am not implementing you personally above, “you” is another broad stroke of those with that train of thought.
Oh yea….isn’t libertarian another stereotyping title, how about democrat or republican, oh wait …we dismiss that as a “party” ( even which neither have ribbons and balloons) so that’s different. Sorry…..ok ….stopping now……..
Yesterday is a memory, tomorrow is a prediction, but today…… is a Bi**h
September 30, 2008 at 1:00 pm #13027RupmiscParticipantYes, I think PC is a crock. Mostly because truth becomes a casualty. This is true for the right, left, and center. Examples (not necessarily my opinions): if you say that Islam is not a tolerant religion whose history is filled with conquest where the conquered are given a choice to “convert or die”, then you are culturally insensitive- not PC. But if you say the religious right in the USA is not a hell of a lot different than the Taliban (if they could have the power), or why do people make such a fuss about gay marriage, when they make much less fuss about polygamy in the southwest with 14 year old girls forced to marry – then you are an Eastern Effete Elite snob- also politically incorrect.
You want to be called a redneck, more power to you. You want to call yourself a Gangsta, up to you. I don’t have a problem. But if were to call Sarah Palin “Trailer Trash Barbie”, she might have a problem. And of course, some terms might or might not be considered offensive. It depends on who is on the receiving end, and it depends on the intent. “Yankee” doesn’t strike me as generally offensive. But, you insensitive so and so, I may live in New England and own a BMW, but I grew up in LA and Manhattan, and I consider myself a dazzling urbanite, not a goddam yankee (just had to say that).
Nor do I disagree about people who are overly sensitive. It can make a great excuse for other failings.
Just for the record, being tactful, to me, means finding a not hurtful way to deliver bad news. Sensitivity is realizing that your preconceptions might be stupid, and being aware that, in light of all the surrounding facts, some things are unfair and known to be unfair. Even if I concede that someone might not have meant offense (which I won’t always do), there is still no excuse for speaking blatant stupidity, and not at least being called on it, admitting the error, and apologizing.
Give me a break. Does your skin color determine your driving ability? Do West Virginians really screw their siblings? Is it OK not to know that “Jap” is normally considered to be a derogatory reference, like “Chink”, “Gook”, “Wop” etc. Next thing you know, someone will be talking about “real Americans” (as if you aren’t one if you don’t agree with the speaker).
To another of your points, “libertarian” is descriptive when I use it to refer to my point. I suppose it could become a stereotype is you assumed that because some libertarians were tall, that every libertarian was tall. Terms like that tend to be generalizations, which reflect basic political positions. They mean different things to different people, but aren’t, on their own, stereotypes.
I could go on longer, but I’ll gut off now. Like Munch, these things get a little long. My original point was that free speech doesn’t excuse stupid or even wrong speech. I agree with Munch that who says something, and context make a difference. But the stuff I was talking about, unthinking remarks about other people’s race, sex, religion, etc. are offensive (though protected free speech), and that I can respect the right to speak, but still tell the speaker that he/she is a jerk. On the subject of respecting people’s rights to their own beliefs and freedoms, no one says it like H. L. Mencken did:
“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”
“Nature abhors a moron.”
September 30, 2008 at 4:05 pm #13039MunchParticipantFor the most part, yes , you are right we agree. One thing, which I could be wrong about, is why most shy from this topic. Splitting hairs.
Things you that you may deem stupid may not be to someone else.
Lets go back to the redneck stereotype. I can almost guarantee you that when read, everyone from different locales have their own perspective of what a redneck is. Some see the old school “racist” gun toting, wife beater 3 sizes to small wearing, tobacco juice in his beard having, belligerent drunk. Some see rednecks as Government hating anarchists that have ties to every militia group in the country and listen to shortwave radios exclusively to avoid main stream media slants and corruption. In my neck of the woods we are a group of people very strong in beliefs of having fun and knowing that what we have is what we worked for and being proud of it. We don’t want the Lexus, we understand that its a Camry with the fiberglass package, not all but some of us don’t feel the need to have the status symbol. We already have our friends and family and we know we can count on them day or night.
People could be very much trying to insult me by using those terms and definitions above. I don’t care one way or another. The only value any words have are the ones that you give them. George Carlin did a wonderful spot in his stand up about it. Its not the words, its the tone and context. If you make fun of the context you therefore disarm the implications and disallow it to hurt you. I know …oh great he is referring to comics… Most comedians have more insight then most people give them respect for, they are mostly just philosophical humorists that have to observe the world around them and spin it. Gallagher all be it a tad over the top did great things with it to.I will say this… I like the quote you added on the bottom of your post. I teach my daughters all the time near the very same thing, ” I don’t care what you believe, as long as you believe in something and it doesn’t hurt anyone”.
Best movie line: “What if someone called your mom a whore?”
response: ” Is she? “
If it’s not the truth it doesn’t matter…. if it is… it still doesn’t matter. You wanna call Sarah Palin “Trailer Trash Barbie” ( sorry got a giggle outta that) then go for it. Should she get mad about it. No. She SHOULD know herself and her lifestyle and know that a moments grace is infinitely more commanding then a moment of justification. Ofcourse that is also touching to close to politics in which I severely hate.
“I consider myself a dazzling urbanite” ROFL….I am gonna have to steal that from you… sorry to damn funny.
Oh yea… one example though from personal experience : Had a customer come in, upset cause she thought her tires didn’t get rotated. She commenced to throwing all kinds of verbal abuse around and looked straight at me and said “All of us Yankees are moving down here to show you backwoods hillbillies the right way to live.” …thought that was funny, I responded by simply smiling and asking “Interesting, I thought our hookers and politicians were already readily available I guess we were lacking in the pusher/mob department, and besides I will remind you that the difference between hillbillies and rednecks ( I look at my work boots) are that rednecks wear shoes”. It took her all of about 5 secs to bust out laughing realizing that everyone falls into a stereotype and that even though she was trying to be insulting I very easily deflected it turned it into something more humorous. After that she also realized we rotate tires…. not wheel covers.BTW,,,, I love debating with people…its how I learn, had you presented the “argument” from a different PoV I would likely had jumped on that to :^) its how I work and my woman hates it. I hate it sometimes cause I get to good at playing devils advocate.
Yesterday is a memory, tomorrow is a prediction, but today…… is a Bi**h
September 30, 2008 at 4:11 pm #13040MunchParticipantThink I rambled and got off topic…. again.
Splitting hairs…. calling something said stupid and ignorant requires passing judgement on the others knowledge and personal standards. Which in the very same instance you are excersizing the very thing that is making you upset and offended.Ok…I THINK I am done…… stay tuned….
Yesterday is a memory, tomorrow is a prediction, but today…… is a Bi**h
October 1, 2008 at 12:55 am #13074RupmiscParticipantI have been known to argue either side, myself (reformed lawyer). That was a good post, and I haven’t worked my way through all of it. It really doesn’t matter if we agree or not, the rambles are interesting.
I don’t, however, want to take credit for something that isn’t mine. “Dazzling urbanite” comes from the mind of Mel Brooks in “Blazing Saddles”. The Kid asks Black Bart “What’s a dazzling urbanite like you doing in a place like this”. Noteworthy because later, the “Kid” tells Bart that he shouldn’t be concerned about what the townspeople think . A rough paraphrase is: “These people are simple people, their farmers and small townspeople, salt of the earth, … you know, morons”. I confess that while where they live, or what they do for a living doesn’t make much difference to me, I do think that there are a lot of morons out there. Not very PC. But if you haven’t seen it lately, or never saw it, give it a look.
October 1, 2008 at 4:44 am #13091MunchParticipantAs I posted above about comedians. I love comedy but I don’t always seems to like all of em. Mel Brooks at times seems a little to eccentric and… well un-intelligent to my taste ( yes I know …passing judgement, lol) I don’t really like alot of movies where the humor is forced, I stay away from Adam Sadler , and Jim Carey. Forced humor doesn’t do it for me. Sarcasm and intelligent back and forth rants where a joke is slipped in leaving one scratching their head wondering if they just heard it, thats more my taste. Or styles like that of Carlin, Gallagher, Robin Williams and Whoopie Goldberg.I can even laugh at new ones like Gabriel Iglesias, George Lopez, Jeff Foxworthy…heck I even like Jeff Dunham the ventriloquist. Guess I am weird and in little company with that.
South Park irritates me to no end.
I grew up and got overloaded and movies like Airplane and Spaceballs and the likes… guess its just gotten old and predictable. But hey …never know when I may come across it and say “what the hell, why not”Yesterday is a memory, tomorrow is a prediction, but today…… is a Bi**h
October 1, 2008 at 3:34 pm #13108MattNParticipant“I don’t have to like what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”.
Smart man once said that… part of what our country is founded on.
I personally don’t believe in the right to “not be offended by what you see and hear”. You certainly don’t have to like it, or approve of the message, but the simple concept of all people being equal means that all people are entitled to there own opinions and beliefs.
I do think that when people hear and see something that offends them they need to stop and think and learn from the experience.
October 1, 2008 at 4:38 pm #13121smokeizfireParticipantwill weigh in when I get time.
HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINSOctober 1, 2008 at 4:52 pm #13124bob250ParticipantWhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I suppose you’re going to say Family Guy is crap too.
October 1, 2008 at 9:40 pm #13132RupmiscParticipantI would, almost anything (it’s the legal training). I won’t defend your right to shout “fire” in a crowded space (where there is no fire). You would be endangering people (this is a standard exception to free speech, as is “let’s lynch the bastard” to a crowd). Beyond that, you have the right to say anything. But I have the right to say you are an ass. And if you use some speech, I am not going to convict someone who knocks your teeth out.
Offense is generally in the ear of the hearer. But there are limits which people can generally agree on. Racial, ethnic, gender slurs, stereotypes, aren’t something that people need to ignore.
Sometime, someone may challenge indirectly by saying “you shouldn’t do that” which leads to free speech arguments. Maybe it is more direct to say, “you are either ignorant, or a jerk”. Just more exercise of free speech.
I think I’m working toward the concept that free speech should not be confused with responsibility for content. You can say it, but people may make judgments about what you say. Munch may not care what people call him based on his location [?], but cracks about some group of people by someone else, especially by a non-member of that group, can be offensive.
Or is being a bigoted asshole perfectly OK because it is free speech. To me, that person is free to speak, but the speech makes them an asshole. And it would be OK for other posters to tell him so. I think it is OK to be aware of offense given to others. Something about seeing that other people get treated the way you would like to be. So I am offended by description of “black lady” drivers on cellphones. I have no problem with mentioning the cellphone, but a white guy on a cell phone is just as oblivious. So what is it about the poster, probably subconscious, that makes him/her believe the rest is relevant. It may even have been pure description, with no ill intent. As Freud said “Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar”. But in light of all of the people through history have used certain words in evil ways, I prefer to be a little more aware of what is said.
Aside: Munch, the early Brooks is the best: “The Producers” with Mostel and Wilder; “Blazing Saddles”, “Young Frankenstein”. Brilliant.
October 2, 2008 at 8:16 am #13164AnonymousGuestOctober 2, 2008 at 5:32 pm #13182MattNParticipantinsighting panic into a crowd ( yelling fire, yelling bomb in an airport etc.. ) is much different than free speech and the right to say and do what you want. Agreed.
There is a difference between hurting someones feelings and putting people in physical danger…
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